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by Penny on 10 February 2009 - 11:02
it was not that long ago when certain GSD Clubs when voting for Champ Show Judges voted the likes of the Alsatian judges, all rounders that judge the Alsatian type, and 'middle of the roaders', to stay on the Breed Council list,
That is because they WANTED to !!! - and moreover because it was the only choice they had to vote their judges on - because there is at present only one BREED COUNCIL, but if they had their own name, their own B.C. they wouldnt have voted or even been there to vote... They have their rights too, whether GSd people like their type or not, they like them, and breed them and want to exhibit them as Alsatians.
The point I disagree with Spike on is the following
The future could be bright for them though as they will be able to breed with the GSD and call them Ali-sheps and charge a fortune just as the rare whites, blues, livers and the remaining crap the KC likes to register each year.
When the seperation occurs, note I said WHEN - there will be no crossing at all. Exhibitors will once and for all decide which party they belong too, and it would be as daft as going to mate your GSD with a lurcher to produce a German Shepherd.... it would not be registerable by the K.C. Muich more thought has gone into this process by lots of people from both types - as I stated earlier in a post, I have to hand, an excellent document and it clearly defines all the pro`s and con`s. It is not my document, it was sent to me anonymously, and I have been in touch with its Author, who incidentally favours the Alsatian - and this proves without doubt from this document that it can work given time, patience, and diligence from a delegated group. I contacted the author to let him know that I had the document in fairness to him, as it must have been copyright. I have also offered to send it directly back to him, and he has trusted that I will keep it until, in the very near future, he will give permission for its use with the outcome being a very positive presentation to the Kennel Club. I thank the author for his trust in me - he and I have probably NEVER spoken before, and I am looking forward to his decision within the next few weeks.
David - Paulie - Reason - SueB - any-one out there... can you formulate a document of your thoughts on the "switchover" process? Many hands make light work, and thanks to Spike, Mackenzie and Watcher - the fact that I took parts of your postings was not to prove you wrong but to get acorss my very passionate point of view.
Mo - Mascani

by Sue B on 10 February 2009 - 12:02
But Spike definately does have a very valid point, however what must be remembered when judges are voted for every year by the Breed Council Clubs is that regardless of whether the Clubs vote for the judges or not, once they have Champ Show status the KC wont remove them from their list even if the Clubs do, so in that respect the voting of judges lists is all a little irrelevant anyway !! Just another set of red tape the KC makes the Clubs go through then goes ahead and pleases itself as usual anyway, a bit like Health Screening and KC registrations, with KC Accredited Breeder being a perfect example of meaningless, pointless, hypocritical Red Tape.
Regards
Sue

by Sue B on 10 February 2009 - 13:02
Hi Mo, Ok since you have asked , as soon as I get time I will jot something down and forward it onto you. Although I believe I have probably highlighted most of the thoughts I have had on the seperation process within the posts I have made to this thread already. However, will try to find the time to give it a bit more thought, though doubt I will have much more to add than the thoughts of those you may have already recieved from the others you mentioned.
McKenzie, do you not consider it ridiculous to be telling a newcomer (whether Liebe is a newcomer or not) that they have to ask an established exhibitor which judges to put their dog under? I found it amazing that you answered Liebe in such a way as you felt this was an acceptable situation ! It is not, never has been and never will be, for either sides preference of type.
As someone already said, what about the judges whose eyes start to change to the type they prefer , waster entries for one side or the other. Then you have those judges who try to appease both camps and end up with very un-uniformed line-ups.
What about those particular "handlers" who do well with whatever they have under either side, what if the newcomer asks their opinion about which judge to go under? They could hardly call the judge that puts them up as not been true to the type they prefer where they are concerned. I am certain some judges have no idea how to judge our breed and try to assertain what is a good dog by it's well known handler and that has gone on for Donkey's Years, as handlers Johnny Stokes and Edwin White were masters at it !! lol There will always be bad judges, we are all aware of that and even accept it, what I cannot accept is when it is blatantly obvious the judge cannot tell the difference between one type or the other, or rather is doing favours in both camps, that is what causes much of the problems we are now currently facing between the two factions and the problems caused between us is why we need to go our own seperate ways. I fdont know about you but I for one would welcome exchanging a smile and friendly nod with an Alsatian exhibitor rather than a grimace or frown. I might even stop to watch them exhibit their chosen type to see how the Alsatian develops into the future. For actually I LOVE ALL DOGS and in that respect it is against my nature to loath the Alsatian, when it isnt the dog itself I am loathing just it been exhibited as a representative of my chosen type of German Shepherd.
For all those who are against this idea of a split/seperation, Open up your eyes, Can you really tell us we DO NOT HAVE TWO TYPES, both of which are judged differently by different named judges YET BOTH recieve KC CC's and Champion Status as representatives of ONE BREED. Do you not see how ludicrous this situation has become? Lets all stop being hypocrites and support the split, everyone is entitled to their opinion, so lets just seperate so that everyone of us can finally ENJOY each others DOGS AS DOGS when it is only our Breed Type differences that prevent us from doing just that. How good would that be eh !!
Regards
Sue B

by Sue B on 10 February 2009 - 13:02
by SitasMom on 10 February 2009 - 14:02
misbeeb
X-rays of hips and elbows and all dna testing prior to breeding, no mother/son, father/daughter breeding and tatoos or microchips to identify a dog, required temperment testing are all good things.
If you believe that the Kennel Club is "just trying to make money", then they would just increase the fees to register dogs. They are taking on a great deal of extra work to implement these programs.
IMO the Kennel Club has seen this breed go way down hill with the overangulation, lameness, lack of work ethic and other ailments. They have seen that breeders and judges are promoting and not weeding out this issues. And in an very un-politically move has decided to do something about it - for the good of the breed.
The SV requires titles, tattoos, hip certifications.......so why not the Kennel Club?
by Mackenzie on 10 February 2009 - 14:02
Good post Mo.
I can appreciate your point of view. If I dig way back into the past I seem to remember when you came into the breed. From memory I think the first dog I remember you having was by either Ramacon Philanderer or his son Swashbuckler. Although this was many years ago the significance of this is that as a beginner you had the wisdom to be open minded as to the way to go forward. Although this subject has become bloody minded on both sides I feel that it is more a question of education that started all those years ago. The English faction do not need harsh critism but help in guiding them forward. As I understand it ,and I may be wrong, registrations from the English side are falling. If this is so, then it should be easier to re-educate some of of those that are left. I think that at this time it is for our side to be more tolerant of the others to help facilitate unison within the breed.
When dealing with the question of judges with the KC would should remember back to an event some years ago. The breed was judged at Cruft's one year by a Member and Officer of the KC with the result that many, many people at the show and after the judging was completed signed a petition to the KC as to the quality of their appointment. Older breeders and exhibitors will remember the KC's response and how they behaved towards our side of the fence.
At another Championship show,Richmond I think, we were judged by a prominent All Rounder and influential KC Member. In the run off for the female C.C. he ran the last six females before a final decision. The females ran around and then up the middle for the winner to be announced. As the dogs were being stood the Judge pointed to the sixth dog and shouted that is my winner. For theatrics he had them in reverse order which he thought was funny. In my opinion it was an insult to this breed and the exhibitors.
I introduce these tales to enlarge everyone's field of thought in dealing with the KC and what we all want to achieve - a United Breed.
The purpose of all my posts is NOT to slag people off but to enlarge their field of thought in order to be more objective. It is the rule of moving forward.
Mackenzie
by Mackenzie on 10 February 2009 - 14:02
Thank you for your response to my post to Liebe.
I quite agree with you that an enquirer should not ask an experienced exhibitor as to which judge they should show their dog under. May I suggest that you read my post again because what I actually said was "However, it will help you if you can identify an experienced exhibitor who will provide you with information as to WHICH SIDE OF THE FENCE THE JUDGES SIT". Perhaps you will change your opinion.
Kind regards
Mackenzie

by missbeeb on 10 February 2009 - 15:02
misbeeb
X-rays of hips and elbows and all dna testing prior to breeding, no mother/son, father/daughter breeding and tatoos or microchips to identify a dog, required temperment testing are all good things.
If you believe that the Kennel Club is "just trying to make money", then they would just increase the fees to register dogs. They are taking on a great deal of extra work to implement these programs.
IMO the Kennel Club has seen this breed go way down hill with the overangulation, lameness, lack of work ethic and other ailments. They have seen that breeders and judges are promoting and not weeding out this issues. And in an very un-politically move has decided to do something about it - for the good of the breed.
The SV requires titles, tattoos, hip certifications.......so why not the Kennel Club?
Hip scoring (more recently elbow scoring & DNA) / tattooing / breed surveys have been used for many, many years by the majority of "Germanic" breeders and we have tried MANY times to get the KC to make them a prerequisite for registration... they have ALWAYS refused. Importantly... the majority of breeders have continued to do the above... despite the total lack of support from our KC!
I don't believe the KC is just trying to make money... I KNOW. IMO, the best thing we could do is DUMP our KC and fall more in line with the SV.
Before you spout such codswallop, SitasMom, please make an effort to get your facts right. I would never have the temerity to make the comments you have without doing my homework!

by Videx on 10 February 2009 - 19:02
There are some Germanic breeders/exhibitors, who used to be Alsatianists, and have a SOFT mentality with regard to our SEPARATING these two different dogs for breeding & exhibiting purposes. Many of these will NEVER post on here because they are like MOST Alsatianists, beavering away in the Kennel Club and other places, in PRIVATE of course. The Germanic GSD have a bright future here in the UK, and internationally, WE do not need or want ANY connection, whatsoever, with Asatianists. WE MUST NOW CUT THEM LOOSE, and FREE OURSELVES from their underhanded activities, which continually damage us. SEPARATION IS THE ONLY ANSWER.

by Sue B on 10 February 2009 - 20:02
Hello Mackenzie
I Thank You for your reply to my posts and thank you too for your suggestion but since I did read your post correctly the first time around I decline your invitation to change my mind. As the basis of your suggestion that I should comes from your belief that your comment of :- "it will help you if you can identify an experienced exhibitor who will provide you with information as to WHICH SIDE OF THE FENCE THE JUDGES SIT". is somehow different to mine of having to "tell a newcomer (whether Liebe is a newcomer or not) that they have to ask an established exhibitor which judges to put their dog under? " no matter which way you write it, both sentances are tantermount to the same thing and to me that is what is ridiculous. Believe me Mackenzie over the years I had wished the fractions would come together but after almost 30yrs of seperation between the two different sides of the fence (as you put it), I admit defeat and now believe we should split. So you see I am NOT above changing my mind on things because as far as this debate goes I have more recently changed my mind, I changed my mind when IMO one of the best German Shepherds I have ever seen was subjected to ridicule by the desparaging remarks some from (as you say) the other side of the fence sent in to the KC, that was when I realised that if this dog could not be appreciated then there can be no middle ground left betwen the two sides and it was time to call it a day. Enough is Enough, the UK has created its own type of breed from the Germanic Type Shepherd and if that is the type they love then so be it, they should be allowed to enjoy their dogs and us ours and the only way to do that peacefully is to split. For the real, real sad fact Mackenzie, is that I KNOW what you suggested (re checking which side of the fence the judge is on) is true, it really does happen, on a regular basis , numerous times a year. However the fact I accept it is a true situation that happens does not mean I have to consider it an acceptable one. So perhaps if you would care to reread my post you will see that I was asking you that very same question "Do you consider this fact ridiculous?" to which you gave no answere.
Also, where you said "Sometimes it is worth going to a show just to watch and form your own opinion. Just remember that the winners will be delighted with the Judge and the losers not so much. Bear this in mind when talking to people."
I agree with this statement of yours because I consider it to be relevant to all breed of dog, for it relates to the differences between those who are good judges, bad judges, face judges or favour judges and it is enough we have to accept these without further having to consider those that will judge our Breed to an Untypical Breed Type. Also consider this, when I judge to the German Type those from the other side could say I was a bad judge, a favour judge or whatever and visa versa when really I am judging my type honestly , to my best of my ability and so too may the Alsatian type judges be doing the same. Perhaps the time has come to put away our differences and accusations of each other by finally agreeing to disagree and go our seperate ways once and for all.
Continued below
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