The GSD must SPLIT away from The Alsation! - Page 40

Sorry to join this debate so late.

This is a subject that has been discussed many times over the last twenty years or so.  However, the problems remain the same.

Firstly, the KC get very heavy handed with dissenters because as we all know in their eyes they know absolutely everything about every breed of dog.

Secondly, the next problem is that breeders and exhibitors will not boycott KC shows because of the C.C's on offer.   Everyone wants a champion and red cards to help sell puppies.

Thirdly, and this is a major problem, who would do the work and take responsibilty for maintaining the system will be in place forever.  The UK clubs have continuing friction among their members and even the lead club is failing in many areas.  Just look at the gripes that have appeared on this messageboard.

My personal opinion is that I would support any move  that can be successfully maintained to take this breed away from the KC and fall in line with the rest of the world.   Unfortunately, this will never happen, mainly because of individual attitudes, the lack of a real and genuine leader and finally, a lack of attitudxe and drive in the common interest.

mackenzie

Mackenzie
you have the wrong idea of what this debate is about. What has been proposed here is NOT A SPLIT FROM THE KC but a split of the BREED, i.e To seperate the two types into two seperate breeds. The German Shepherd (for the german types) and the Alsatian for those who still refere to the breed as an Alsatian and continue to breed a type insular to the Uk and therefore not an International Type of German Shepherd.
 
So many now believe it is time for our two fractions to go their own seperate ways by splitting the breed into two types, GErman Shepherds and Alsatians of which both types will have their own standard , with the German Shepherd retaining the WUSV standard (World Union of Shepherd Clubs Standard) and those who prefer the  Alsatian type to devise a   Standard to correctly suit their own type of Alsatian breed.

Then all will still be registered with the KC and both breeds will have their own sets of CC's a little like what happened to the Belgium Shepherd or when the Americans changed the Cocker so much they created a seperate type which now seperates the Cockers into two breeds types with two individual standards the English Cocker and American Cocker.

Hope this now helps you to correctly understand what this thread is actually about.

Regards
Sue b

 excellent post Sue clear & concise,

The benefits for both breeds, GSD and Alsatian, would be considerable. Not least the huge reduction, if not elimination of the bickering between the two factions. For me a significant benefit would be to have the SV,WUSV, FCI Breed Standard, accepted by the Kennel Club for our German Shepherd Dog.

The kennel club seems to be going back to what Max and Artur had intended.

Look at Kennel club illustration and go to the Historical VA List, click on it and scroll down to the mid 1930's.

These were the last dogs that Max judged before he died.

They are very, very similar.

Hello Sue

I have not  misunderstood the thread of what is going on here.   The simple fact  is there is only one true German Shepherd.   I accept that the breed is split into two factions, however, we must accept that the English faction is breeding to a standard accepted by the KC, whereas the rest of the world is breeding to the correct breed standard.  The latter situation should  send a strong message to the KC .
 
Basically, if we go back far enough the English faction has the same breeding background as the German faction.   The KC itself has always sided with the English faction.   However, the split itself is probably due to people not wanting to change what they are doing, or, they cannot breed to the standard now accepted world wide.   Some years ago I had a conversation with a very well known breeder who, in his day, was among the most successful people in the breed and he said that he could not follow the German breeding situation mainly because he found that he had to wait so long before he really knew what he had.  Under the English system and with the dogs that he was using he said that he always knew by the time the dogs were 8 to 10 weeks old.  The result was that he gave up.

Another point to consider is what will happen if another group of people  come along and breed to another variation of the breed?   Will there be another split?   How many splits can the breed take?

Apossible situation that may be possible and accepted by the KC if it is presented properly is to persuade the governing body to allow the German faction to run it's own affairs and pay them some fee based perhaps on registrations and, with their supervision to  ensure the scheme runs properly.

Breeds should not be split just because a group of people cannot breed to the correct standard, or, do not want to.

Kind regards

Mackenzie

 

missbeeb

did you go and look at the mid 1930's VA champs?????

did you compare the old photos against the Kennel Club illustration????

did you go and look at the mid 1930's VA champs?????   No, but there were many of them in the pedigree of my parents last Shepherd.

did you compare the old photos against the Kennel Club illustration????  No need for me to do that, there's nothing for me to learn there.  The Shepherd changed quite a lot during Max Von Stephanitz's reign too... I'm assuming you've seen that... in photographs, of course?

No breed is exactly as it was 100 years ago... and how can anyone know what "Max" would have ultimately have aimed for?  It's just guesswork at best.

The country of origin is Germany, we should all have the same breed standard as Germany. IMO.

 

 SitasMom: Our GSD breed is a relatively very young breed, and Max only had 30+ years to develop the GSD towards his ideal, and even in that time the GSD only evolved towards what he and the SV envisaged. After his death, the SV continued of course, and also continued the evolution of the German Shepherd Dog towards the evisaged goal. There are obviously some currently aspects of the GSD requiring further evolution, and adjusting, which have been acknowledged by the SV, such as size, and a bringing together of the Working and Show sides of our breed, towards a universal GSD. I am sure our GSD breed will continue to evolve for many decades and centuries to come, with the goal of a superb GSD, a combination of an excellent working dog and a very beautiful dog. I will aslo wager that when that is achieved, it may only be agreed by a majority. Perhaps! Evolution never stands still, especially where human beings have an influence. Cloning may be quite common in the next century, or even bio-mechanical working dogs. Now there's a thought. I think I know some Schutzhund enthusiasts who may have desires for a robotic working dog. There are certainly some GSD exhibitors that train their dogs for a robotic performance, and Judges that reward the more robotic performers.

 
1932, 33, 34, 35 Siegers..............

These champions look very much like the new Kennel Club illistration, don't you think? The are most likely the last 4 Siegers that Max picked out.

For the most part thier bodies are thicker then the working dogs and they have less anglation then the show dogs.

The first part of the Breed Discription is that the dog MUST be able to work, if not its a flaw. The type of work was described at detail by Max, it was Schutzhund type work, much more difficult then the present day work.

We need to come together and create dogs the Max wanted and that can pass the test that he created. 

I have to consider that the Kennel Club sees what is happening to the German Shepherd and is trying to get back to its roots. With the result being a very well rounded beautiful working dog........as these siegers clearly indicate.