CHOOSING A 6 MONTH OLD PUP WITH CIVIL DRIVE - Page 4

lets say we disagree on definition and recognition of different drives in dogs, im fine with that, still dogs in sport are worked in prey, if they are willing to go civil or not, and therefore in buildup, decoys allways pet and encourage young dogs, be it for IPO, KNPV or even policework

if you cannot see that this 6 months pup is easily triggered into something else than preybite, also fine with me, just responding to OP question, thats all

 

 

 

I wish I could see the video, but for some reason I can't.

I don't know. I think you can get a very good idea about puppies at a young age, like Susie and others have said.

A family member got a 7 week Golden. I told them that he was going to be trouble. Dominance, etc. He isn't horrible, but for a Golden, and first time dog owners, he is a handful. Any time you cry over your dog when it is alive and well, isn't a good scenario.

Anyhow, knowing what you have isn't the hard part, it is what you do with it.

Carry on

well, to my way of thinking, I see the following on this thread

1. a poster who provides dogs for LE/Mil and to make a vocation of this, must be able to recognize traits needed, including "civil"

2. a poster who make a vocation of passing European dogs on to apparently endless U.S. market

3. a poster who can choose civil before teeth come in

4. my favorite poster from Germany, who seems to have much knowledge and experience on GSD from S/L able to be real GSD.

personally, I think they all have and share experience and I enjoy learning from each.

jmo,
Rik

I can't see the video. The decoy may be a top level decoy, but I don't think it is a good idea to use a whip in bite work. IMO, you should not have to "beg" the dog to come into drive or bite. The dog will never see a whip on the sport field and not likely to on the street. I don't have a problem using the whip in obedience to build drive. As far as civil goes, as I said before and someone else pointed out, civil simply means a dog will bite a person not wearing equipment. The motivation for the dog biting without equipment can vary quite a bit from dog to dog. A very high prey dog who simply loves to bite can be civil. And just because a dog has very high prey drive does not mean the dog is more likely to go into avoidance if severe pressure is applied. I think the term civil often becomes conflated with a dog that has a low threshold for defense or whose primary drive is defense, or a sharp dog. Dogs that are just the opposite can be civil.

Prager-"In my experience, almost any dog can be trained protection to some level."
I don't know what you consider protection, but I think this is another ridiculous statement from you. I would say the vast majority of all dogs will not protect/bite a threatening person. Getting a dog to bark at someone is not protection and often stems from fear. I know someone who has a French bulldog. He can get that dog to bark at people, but he would bolt in a second.

Everything is NOT black or white, to my way of thinking. This is a very nice example of the breed, that depending on his nurturing and training has potential to be a lot of things. I definitely think this pup has civil tendencies and if raised a certain way, will be “ naturally” civil. I know that is confusing to some, but others will understand. A civil dog does not have to show high defensive aggression to be naturally civil....many folks who are knowledgeable about training, but not dealing with purposes that utilize civil traits think civil dogs fit this small box. There are many other elements that shape a civil dog, like nerves, temperament, drives, and ownership to say a few.
I agree that some dogs mature into natural civilness, but experienced breeders/trainers of this type of dog can also project this type dog early with surprisingly high accuracy.
Just my thoughts......

Apple, if he corners the dog and **force him to defend** his very existence......

As an aside, I have bred and raised pups up to 18 months to 2 years when they went to LE depts, that if some of you met the dog would never know he was naturally civil, unless you threatened him. Why, because from early I set boundaries that I will not tolerate venturing outside of that makes the dog far less imposing than the dog is.....but same dog in most others hands the civilness would be leaking out all over the place. Now there are some extreme civil dogs that it’s difficult for dog to comply with these boundaries.....but these dogs are exceptions and are not the “ only” civil dogs.

Gustav, I enjoyed reading your post. I worked with and alongside many police dogs on the streets. Well balanced dogs who enjoyed and cherished the fight always impressed me when it came time to take care of business. What impressed me the most were the dogs who excelled at locating the criminal, rather it be area searches, building searches or the track.

Apple, The whip can be a valuable tool in bite work, and a big emphasis here, if you used correctly.  Watching the video I see a helper well schooled in how to apply it. I watched him use the whip to stimulate the puppy off the sleeve and watched the puppy respond. I notice the body posture of the helper throughout the video and how he uses it and the whip to stimulate and reward the puppy on and off the sleeve. This is good training in bitework for a nice six month old puppy. Whoever produced him should be proud. If everything else lined up, I would be happy raising and training a puppy like that.  Sending the helper would make me happy too.

apple
Getting a dog to bark at someone is not protection and often stems from fear.

if that serves to deter and discourage person from assault, why not? after all, as you pointed, vast majority of dogs anyway won't do more than that. on another hand, vast majority of dogs owners do not fit to handle dogs more than that.

that's also can answer Jesse's question why
"This constant preoccupation with civil is astonishing"
my guess - because today's breeding trend do not offer enough quantity of dogs, who can be more serious protector.