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by Hundmutter on 21 July 2016 - 07:07
I wrote YOUR hands, Shtal !
by Shtal on 21 July 2016 - 15:07
Noitsyou wrote: If God created Satan, and Satan created evil (which God knew would happen), then God is responsible for evil.
WRONG again!!!!
The answer to this question Noitsyou, delves deep into the “sovereignty of God vs. man’s responsibility”
From what I can tell from studying the Bible, Satan was the first to sin. He sinned before the woman sinned, and before Adam sinned. Some claim that we sin because Satan enters us and causes us to sin, but the Bible doesn’t teach this. We sin whether Satan enters us or not. Satan was influencing the serpent when the woman sinned and when Adam sinned; they sinned on their own accord without being able to claim, “Satan made me do it.”
But what causes this initial sin; why did Satan sin in the first place?
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. (Genesis 3:6)
Death is the punishment for sin. Sin originates in desire—one’s own desire. James 1:14 hints that evil comes from one’s own desire. It was by Satan’s own desire that his pride in his own beauty and abilities overtook him.
In the “very good” original creation, it seems likely that Satan and mankind had the power of contrite choice. In the Garden of Eden, the woman was convinced by her own desire (the tree was desirable to make one wise—Genesis 3:6). Satan had not entered her; she was enticed by her own desire.
God is not the author of sin; our desires are. God did not trick or deceive Satan into becoming full of pride. God hates pride (Proverbs 8:13), and it would not be in His character to cause one to become prideful. Nor was He the one who deceived Eve. Deception and lies go hand in hand (Psalm 78:36; Proverbs 12:17), yet God does not lie or deceive (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18).
Please note Noitsyou, that since Satan’s own desires caused his pride, the blame for evil’s entrance into creation cannot be God’s. To clarify, this doesn’t mean God was unaware this would happen, but God permitted it to happen. God is sovereign and acted justly by casting Satan out of heaven after he rebelled against the Creator.
Therefore, when God incarnate came to destroy evil and the work of the devil (1 John 3:8), it was truly an act of love, not a gimmick to correct what He “messed up.” He was glorified in His plan for redemption.
A related question is: was Satan required for man to sin? Satan’s temptation of the woman instigated her to look at the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but it was she who desired it and sinned. Can we really say with certainty that on another day, without Satan, the woman and/or Adam would not have desired the fruit and sinned?
In reality, we suffer death and the Curse because Adam sinned (Genesis 3) and we sinned in Adam (Hebrews 7:9–10), and we continue to sin (Romans 5:12). Adam did his part, but we must take responsibility for our part in committing high treason against the Creator of the universe. It is faulty to think that death and suffering are the result of Satan’s rebellion. Man had dominion over the world, not Satan. When Satan rebelled, the world wasn’t cursed; when Adam sinned, the ground was cursed, death entered the world, and so on. This is why we needed a last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), not a last Eve or a last Satan. This is why Christ came. The good news is that for those in Christ, the punishment for sin (death) will have no sting (1 Corinthians 15:55). I hope this is clear!!
WRONG again!!!!
The answer to this question Noitsyou, delves deep into the “sovereignty of God vs. man’s responsibility”
From what I can tell from studying the Bible, Satan was the first to sin. He sinned before the woman sinned, and before Adam sinned. Some claim that we sin because Satan enters us and causes us to sin, but the Bible doesn’t teach this. We sin whether Satan enters us or not. Satan was influencing the serpent when the woman sinned and when Adam sinned; they sinned on their own accord without being able to claim, “Satan made me do it.”
But what causes this initial sin; why did Satan sin in the first place?
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. (Genesis 3:6)
Death is the punishment for sin. Sin originates in desire—one’s own desire. James 1:14 hints that evil comes from one’s own desire. It was by Satan’s own desire that his pride in his own beauty and abilities overtook him.
In the “very good” original creation, it seems likely that Satan and mankind had the power of contrite choice. In the Garden of Eden, the woman was convinced by her own desire (the tree was desirable to make one wise—Genesis 3:6). Satan had not entered her; she was enticed by her own desire.
God is not the author of sin; our desires are. God did not trick or deceive Satan into becoming full of pride. God hates pride (Proverbs 8:13), and it would not be in His character to cause one to become prideful. Nor was He the one who deceived Eve. Deception and lies go hand in hand (Psalm 78:36; Proverbs 12:17), yet God does not lie or deceive (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18).
Please note Noitsyou, that since Satan’s own desires caused his pride, the blame for evil’s entrance into creation cannot be God’s. To clarify, this doesn’t mean God was unaware this would happen, but God permitted it to happen. God is sovereign and acted justly by casting Satan out of heaven after he rebelled against the Creator.
Therefore, when God incarnate came to destroy evil and the work of the devil (1 John 3:8), it was truly an act of love, not a gimmick to correct what He “messed up.” He was glorified in His plan for redemption.
A related question is: was Satan required for man to sin? Satan’s temptation of the woman instigated her to look at the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but it was she who desired it and sinned. Can we really say with certainty that on another day, without Satan, the woman and/or Adam would not have desired the fruit and sinned?
In reality, we suffer death and the Curse because Adam sinned (Genesis 3) and we sinned in Adam (Hebrews 7:9–10), and we continue to sin (Romans 5:12). Adam did his part, but we must take responsibility for our part in committing high treason against the Creator of the universe. It is faulty to think that death and suffering are the result of Satan’s rebellion. Man had dominion over the world, not Satan. When Satan rebelled, the world wasn’t cursed; when Adam sinned, the ground was cursed, death entered the world, and so on. This is why we needed a last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), not a last Eve or a last Satan. This is why Christ came. The good news is that for those in Christ, the punishment for sin (death) will have no sting (1 Corinthians 15:55). I hope this is clear!!
by GSD Admin on 21 July 2016 - 15:07
The woman? Wow, those 2 words say a lot about you and it is not all that flattering. Just wow.
by Noitsyou on 21 July 2016 - 18:07
God created Satan. Satan created sin or was created with the capacity for sin, regardless, God knew he had the capacity, he put it there, and he knew Satan would sin. Maybe this doesn't mean that God created sin but he knew it was going to exist and since he didn't prevent it he must have wanted it to happen. Thus, God wanted a world that had sin. Because if he didn't, it wouldn't be that way. Otherwise we have to say that God was caught unawares and that brings into question his omniscience. He had to know that Satan would sin before he even created Satan, yet he went ahead anyway. If he didn't know this then we have just put limits on his powers.
by Shtal on 21 July 2016 - 19:07
Technically speaking God did NOT created Satan, he became Satan later.
Let's see what scriptures says:
Ezekiel 28:14–15
You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in thee.
What was the first sin? We learn about it and Satan’s fall from Isaiah 14:12–15:
How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
It is obvious from the text that Satan’s sin was pride. He was so beautiful, so wise, and so powerful as an angel that he began to covet God’s position and authority. He chafed at having to serve God and grew angry and rebellious. He did not want to serve, he wanted to be served; he, as a creature, wanted to be worshipped. How starkly contrasted to our savior Jesus Christ, who came not to be ministered unto, but to minister and to give his life a ransom for many (Mark 10:45).
How did Satan’s prideful rebellion and subsequent fall impact humankind’s first sin? Look at some passages in Proverbs that talk about the sin of pride and what effect it produces.
Proverbs 16:18: Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 11:2: When pride comes, then comes shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
Proverbs 18:12: Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honor is humility.
Here it is evident that pride literally went before the Fall, both the fall of Satan and the fall of man. Pride causes shame, loss of wisdom, destruction, and ruin. If one were to summarize what actually happened as Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, would not these passages describe their mental and physical condition exactly? Shamed by the knowledge of committing sin against God, physical disease, pain and death looming on the horizon, loss of fellowship with God, and having to fight to eke out a living from the cursed ground; all these are the outworking of the sin of pride.
Let's see what scriptures says:
Ezekiel 28:14–15
You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in thee.
What was the first sin? We learn about it and Satan’s fall from Isaiah 14:12–15:
How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
It is obvious from the text that Satan’s sin was pride. He was so beautiful, so wise, and so powerful as an angel that he began to covet God’s position and authority. He chafed at having to serve God and grew angry and rebellious. He did not want to serve, he wanted to be served; he, as a creature, wanted to be worshipped. How starkly contrasted to our savior Jesus Christ, who came not to be ministered unto, but to minister and to give his life a ransom for many (Mark 10:45).
How did Satan’s prideful rebellion and subsequent fall impact humankind’s first sin? Look at some passages in Proverbs that talk about the sin of pride and what effect it produces.
Proverbs 16:18: Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 11:2: When pride comes, then comes shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
Proverbs 18:12: Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honor is humility.
Here it is evident that pride literally went before the Fall, both the fall of Satan and the fall of man. Pride causes shame, loss of wisdom, destruction, and ruin. If one were to summarize what actually happened as Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, would not these passages describe their mental and physical condition exactly? Shamed by the knowledge of committing sin against God, physical disease, pain and death looming on the horizon, loss of fellowship with God, and having to fight to eke out a living from the cursed ground; all these are the outworking of the sin of pride.
by Noitsyou on 21 July 2016 - 20:07
God created Satan, or whoever would become Satan, knowing that he would become Satan. Satan created sin or was created with the capacity for sin, regardless, God knew he had the capacity, he put it there, and he knew Satan would sin. Maybe this doesn't mean that God created sin but he knew it was going to exist and since he didn't prevent it he must have wanted it to happen. Thus, God wanted a world that had sin. Because if he didn't, it wouldn't be that way. Otherwise we have to say that God was caught unawares and that brings into question his omniscience. He had to know that Satan would sin before he even created Satan, yet he went ahead anyway. If he didn't know this then we have just put limits on his powers.
by Shtal on 21 July 2016 - 21:07
Isaiah 55:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Noitsyou wrote: but he knew it was going to exist and since he didn't prevent it he must have wanted it to happen.
I wouldn't say wanted but he didn't prevent it because he already had a plan to send Jesus Christ as our redeemer...
Noitsyou wrote: Thus, God wanted a world that had sin.
No, I would disagree with you here.
Noitsyou wrote: If he didn't know this then we have just put limits on his powers.
No, I would disagree with you here.
by Noitsyou on 21 July 2016 - 21:07
"Noitsyou wrote: but he knew it was going to exist and since he didn't prevent it he must have wanted it to happen.
I wouldn't say wanted but he didn't prevent it because he already had a plan to send Jesus Christ as our redeemer..."
Thus, he wanted it. If he didn't want it, it wouldn't have happened. God did have a choice, no?
"Noitsyou wrote: Thus, God wanted a world that had sin.
No, I would disagree with you here."
God had the power to create whatever world he wanted. If he wanted a world without sin it was within his powers, no?
"Noitsyou wrote: If he didn't know this then we have just put limits on his powers.
No, I would disagree with you here."
You disagree that if we say God didn't know what would happen it puts limits on his omniscience? You might want to reread this.
by Hundmutter on 21 July 2016 - 22:07
Nice, noitsyou.
by Shtal on 21 July 2016 - 23:07
Lol @Noitsyou
I see what you are trying to do lol trying to trick me If God knew that Satan would rebel, why did He create him?"
Perhaps I will extrapolate your trap that you set for me lol....You see this is a two-part question. The first part is “Did God know Satan would rebel?”
Here is where you are wrong again Noitsyou? We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-knowing.” Job 37:16; Psalm 139:2–4, 147:5; Proverbs 5:21; Isaiah 46:9-10; and 1 John 3:19–20 leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.
Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses—“perfect in knowledge”; “his understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to your first question Noitsyou is “yes, God knew that Satan would rebel.”
Moving on to the second part of the question, “Why did God create Satan knowing ahead of time he was going to rebel?” This question is a little trickier because we are asking a “why” question to which the Bible does not usually provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited understanding. We have already seen that God is omniscient. So, if God knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven, yet He created him anyway, it must mean that the fall of Satan was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we’ve seen thus far.
First, we should understand that knowing Satan would rebel is not the same thing as making Satan rebel. The angel Lucifer had a free will and made his own choices. God did not create Lucifer as the devil; He created him good (Genesis 1:31).
In trying to understand why God created Satan, knowing he would rebel, we should also consider the following facts:
1) Lucifer had a good and perfect purpose before his fall. Lucifer’s rebellion does not change God’s original intent from something good to something bad.
2) God’s sovereignty extends to Satan, even in his fallen condition. God is able to use Satan’s evil actions to ultimately bring about God’s holy plan (see 1 Timothy 1:20 and 1 Corinthians 5:5).
3) God’s plan of salvation was ordained from eternity past (Revelation 13:8); salvation requires something to be saved from, and so God allowed Satan’s rebellion and the spread of sin.
4) The suffering that Satan brought into the world actually became the means by which Jesus, in His humanity, was made the complete and perfect Savior of mankind: “In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered” (Hebrews 2:10).
5) From the very beginning, God’s plan in Christ included the destruction of Satan’s work (see 1 John 3:8).
Ultimately, we cannot know for sure why God created Satan, knowing he would rebel. It’s tempting to assume that things would be “better” if Satan had never been created or to declare that God should have done differently. But such assumptions and declarations are unwise. In fact, to claim we know better than God how to run the universe is to fall into the devil’s own sin of promoting himself above the Most High (Isaiah 14:13–14). Is there any other questions Noitsyou?
I see what you are trying to do lol trying to trick me If God knew that Satan would rebel, why did He create him?"
Perhaps I will extrapolate your trap that you set for me lol....You see this is a two-part question. The first part is “Did God know Satan would rebel?”
Here is where you are wrong again Noitsyou? We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-knowing.” Job 37:16; Psalm 139:2–4, 147:5; Proverbs 5:21; Isaiah 46:9-10; and 1 John 3:19–20 leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.
Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses—“perfect in knowledge”; “his understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to your first question Noitsyou is “yes, God knew that Satan would rebel.”
Moving on to the second part of the question, “Why did God create Satan knowing ahead of time he was going to rebel?” This question is a little trickier because we are asking a “why” question to which the Bible does not usually provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited understanding. We have already seen that God is omniscient. So, if God knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven, yet He created him anyway, it must mean that the fall of Satan was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we’ve seen thus far.
First, we should understand that knowing Satan would rebel is not the same thing as making Satan rebel. The angel Lucifer had a free will and made his own choices. God did not create Lucifer as the devil; He created him good (Genesis 1:31).
In trying to understand why God created Satan, knowing he would rebel, we should also consider the following facts:
1) Lucifer had a good and perfect purpose before his fall. Lucifer’s rebellion does not change God’s original intent from something good to something bad.
2) God’s sovereignty extends to Satan, even in his fallen condition. God is able to use Satan’s evil actions to ultimately bring about God’s holy plan (see 1 Timothy 1:20 and 1 Corinthians 5:5).
3) God’s plan of salvation was ordained from eternity past (Revelation 13:8); salvation requires something to be saved from, and so God allowed Satan’s rebellion and the spread of sin.
4) The suffering that Satan brought into the world actually became the means by which Jesus, in His humanity, was made the complete and perfect Savior of mankind: “In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered” (Hebrews 2:10).
5) From the very beginning, God’s plan in Christ included the destruction of Satan’s work (see 1 John 3:8).
Ultimately, we cannot know for sure why God created Satan, knowing he would rebel. It’s tempting to assume that things would be “better” if Satan had never been created or to declare that God should have done differently. But such assumptions and declarations are unwise. In fact, to claim we know better than God how to run the universe is to fall into the devil’s own sin of promoting himself above the Most High (Isaiah 14:13–14). Is there any other questions Noitsyou?
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