Growing pains - 8 months - Page 4

Inflammation does not = soft bones. 

I don't speak in God's name, prager, to such a trivial question you asked. 

What is your point in all that red print comments in your cut and paste, other than argument?

I don't have time for your tit for tat games, but if you are really interested in facts, look up Universities Federation for Animal Wellfare or University of Pennsylvania.

You're wrong if you believe that pano is soft bones, and that it is caused by too rapid growth...the cause unknown according to University Pennsylvania, one of the leading vet schools in the US. 

Joan you ask whaty is my point . My point is to point the facts. If you do not understand,.... then,..well,...  what can I say? The highlighted parts were responds to your points.  The funny thing is that someone else posted same article before me and you did not have problem with it. Thus  here is my advice to you. Get a life and just ignore me. You will be happier. I ignore you unless you challenge me.  Oh and I am sure  that If I repent and ask God  for forgives for taking his name in vain ,..God will forgive me. He told me so.:) 

Abby Normal. If you already feed meat and dogs still have pano then you have done all I know you can do.  FYI: There is plenty of calcium and other minerals in proper balance in chicken feet. You should cook them and feed about 1-4 feet per day. There is  no danger with bones in chicken feet they are way too small. Also if you worry about chicken bones ( I do not) then feed only the flat bones - like the breast bone and pelvis and neck bones and with scissors cut  and feed the joints  with the gristle and dispose of  the tubular parts. BTW I feed cooked chicken 1/4s  to 10s of dogs for decades and never had a problem.  

Also I do not recommend to feed raw meat to pups to dogs under 8 months. Here is interesting articles I subscribe to on topic of feeding cooked foot to pups. 

http://www.alpinek9.com/RawDiet.html

 This is important: if you cook meat cool it in the refrigerator and then scoop the fat and do not give it to the dog less you like to clean diarrhea. 

 Prager Hans

From an article on Panosteitis by Wendy C. Brooks, DVM, DipABVP http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=3238

"What causes all this to happen in the first place is unclear and open to speculation. There is some evidence of an infectious cause: a normal dog will develop panosteitis if it receives a bone inoculation of marrow from an affected dog. Furthermore, some dogs develop a fever and high white blood cell count along with their bone issues, indicating an infectious cause. Bacteria have not been cultured from panosteitis lesions but it has been surmised that a virus is involved. Still, despite extensive study, an infectious agent has not been isolated."

Has anyone see the literature or reference to where this study or studies were done? Have not been able to find any direct references to it yet...

Prager, thanks. No I don't and never yet have had a dog with Pano. I was questioning the advice to the OP, as the dog is young and I wondered about the calcium/mineral issue. No I don't have a problem with feeding raw chicken either.  I thought it may be the chicken feet in your recipe. Sorry, didn't mean to go off topic.

Prager, when you are shown to be wrong you go to the personal attacks and refuse to address the topic ....."Challenge you? "  No, not challenging you, but the misinformation you spew as fact. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then you baffle them with bs".

So, did you look up University  of Pennsylvania information on pano? Probably not, or if you did, you chose to ignore the facts and stick with you bs. Even if you choose to remain misinformed, at least readers here can go to the sources I mentioned and see for themselves what reliable sources report on pano.

Btw, prager, did you read pioneerwife's post? It doesn't mention anything about your claim that pano =soft bones. But it does suggest a virus, which is what I said.

You really should do your research on Google before getting into discussions that are not about nuclear physics or geological engineering, you past endeavours according to you.

As for the article posted before yours, I didn't see it so it must have been a link...I seldom click on links. Anyway, I have read that same article you posted some time ago and didn't take any stock in it. The difference in your posting of it, was your interjection of your comments directed towards me. There is much misinformation such as the article you used in an attempt to discredit me, that are bogus at best.

I am still wanting to hear back from the OP, to see if Lyme Disease has been ruled out. It wouldn't be the first vet to have overlooked that possibility and misdiagnosed pano. The doxy treatment would work, and sooner the better, if it was. Lyme Disease is a bacterial infection, BTW

What ever Joan .... Nobody is attacking you. It is called discussion.   Exchange of opinions and facts.  The article on pano causing viruses or bacteria  which you claim says it is cased  by viruses actually says : What causes all this to happen in the first place is unclear and open to speculation. ......
.....The cause of panosteitis is still a matter of theory and investigation. No one really knows what causes it.​

 The bones of pups  are softer then that of an adult. The bones of pups,  which grow faster then normal  are softer then the ones which grow at a  normal rate. This  is a fact which only you will dispute.   

....

For others who want to know what we are talking about :

 The bones which grow  go through process which, besides other things, involves  ossification. That process takes time.  Thus if the bones and weight grows out of proper rate the bones suffer undue pressure under such excess weight.  That is why I belive we should not be concerned just with weight but  we also  need to be cncernet with the rate of growth of a pup. Pup growing slowly is better off in my humble opinion then pup spurting into fast growth. The sign of bones which are not ossified  is that they are softer then bones which are properly ossified. Those bones flex more and more readily then fully ossified bones. That is a fact. Young growing bones of a child are softer then that those of  a 97 year old Mabel who just broke a hip.  The softer more flexible bone then flexes more. That then causes inflammation of the soft tissue which is covering a  bone. that tissue is called skin and  periosteum.

 This (pano) inflammation usually happens on long bones because they are the most susceptible to such flexing because they support more weight then for example flat bones in a scull.   In any case according to orthopedic vets and scientific articles I consulted on this issue will attest to that. I did not pull it out of my ass.  I am not that smart indeed.             Here is a sentence from one af such  article based on  many scientific studies which supports what I am saying:Cause: The inflammatory process responsible for panosteitis is poorly understood, however, overnutrition and rapid growth are factors widely accepted as playing roles in the development of this disorder.

 Even so nobody knows why exactly this is happening, there are many potential causes  which may work separately or in some complex relationship. They may also include  size, genetics, trauma or as of yet unknown causes..  The infection may be one of them but that too is just a theory. If you are interested in this there is plenty to read about it  on internet. 

 For this posts I have used these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periosteum

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=3238

http://www.labbies.com/dysplasa.htm

 Prager Hans

Something, a virus, bacteria or some agent, must trigger pano, if healthy dogs will develop it when injected with 'infected' marrow. OR it disables the body's natural defense against it. It seems to strike regardless sometimes of the level of care and diligence by an owner with respect to diet or exercise.

Probably not a study that can attract the type of funds for the definitive answer it deserves.

If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, isn't that what you always say? You can convince some but not all. I prefer information from a source such as University of Pennsylvania, which supports my experience with pano, not gobbledygook from a forum.

Discussion is what I was in intending, until you came off topic with your references to God and your red print rebuttal  interjected in an inaccurate article (inaccurate according to reliable sources).

You can feed chicken breasts, as you say will cure the pano, or one can feed raw carrots, or maintain current diet....the results will be the same.

Btw, I said it has been "theorized" that virus is a cause of pano...a much more plausible theory than your claim it is "soft bones" caused by feeding commercial dog food.

Have fun with your rebuttals of this post. I have work to complete.