newNo more individual VA ranked GSD's- only Group - Page 4

If any part of the problem is what Blitzen's LE contact said it was - i.e. LEOs
​becoming fed up with the expensive "trained" dogs they bought being NOT trained
properly -  then that is a very American perspective on the issue.  I have posted
before on the fact that, whatever preference some other countries Services now
have for Malis, the UK Police [and its Army, RAF etc] still uses a majority of GSDs.

The British Police do take in dogs from elsewhere, but they BREED a lot of their
own GSDs;  and they TRAIN all their own dogs, so they know what they've got.

Why are people talking about Malinois on a GSD thread?  Is the USA so thin on knowledge on  the GSD that it is not possible to keep to the thread?

Mackenzie

Yes, in some cases we are thin on understanding the breed, as evidenced by the fact that people who are supposed to be knowledgable about the breed , don't realize that there is no such thing as working lines and show lines in German Shepherds. They all come from the same dogs!!!...Duh! So what we call working and show lines are nothing but dogs that have been bred for show/sport instead of working. They have placed drive, color, and structure above temperament in their breeding priorities. Just like this has been done in last forty years, this could be undone by reversing breeding priorities. So VA dogs could be moved back to being and producing true working dogs with new infusions of genetics until proper balances are in place. The Capt altered the direction of the breed a couple of times by infusing new types within the breed to change the direction because he knew most were sheep and followed the leader. If you study the pedigrees of dogs in Sweden, and many kennels in Czech Rep and Holland, you will see some very balanced strong dogs that have some VA type dogs in five generations. Now, these dogs won't have a majority of VA in the pedigree, but enough to allow them to influence some structure issues, yet still placing nerve and temperament first in the bulk of the pedigree. They make use in Sweden of dogs like Aly Vordinsteinwald, who was known for his producing excellent structure and very good drives and temperament. 
My point is when you are breeding based on lines, you have not put the balance of the breed for temperament, in a place that the breed would not decline in working status. Remember, only maybe two pups out of a litter will really be show quality, if you are a true GS breeder, then why couldn't the other pups in the litter be candidates for service or work. If breeding priorities were right they would be. What stops this from occurring today is the creation of lines within the breed to accommodate the public, show and sport! 
So, I have not given up on VA dogs, I have given up on the knowledge of the breeders and Judges that create them and sport lines. 
Since I am in America, I may be thin on knowledge of this breed, but Mackensie I would love to to compare my dogs and yours in comparison to the standard and see where I am lacking.

No one here is dumb enough to not know that every GSD alive today sprang from the same handful of foundation dogs and how selective breeding has divided the breed into 2 distinctive camps..Duh. My point is that almost every single time there is a thread about show lines it always goes the same way and ends up being a snide bashing of the show line breeders and how they and their dogs are ruining the breed. Their dogs stink, the genetics of their dogs is garbage, the breed is no longer desired by LE because of the crap show lines. Do you ever read any show line breeders bashing working lines?  

This thread is a prime example - initiated to talk about the new SV regs and ending up as a critique of how Va dogs are the bane of the breed.   I just don't understand why is so necessary to keep pounding away on SL dogs and their breeders. Why do you think hardly any SL breeders even participate in the board anymore? Don't like SLs? Then don't own one but let those who do enjoy their dogs talk about them without getting undercut. Give them some respect for god sake, they too are doing what they think is best for the breed. 

 

Kyto, maybe you should start a new thread in the Mali forum to promote your breed?

never mind

Good post Gustav as usual.
I am hoping that we will see more working lines introduced back to the breed and particularly when the males and females are closer to the breed standard.  Unfortunately, the two sides have been allowed to drift so far apart and, my fear now is that it will take many years of dedicated work to bring them back together.   I can remember someone asking Dr Rummel why a particular male who was not anatomicaly VA material was made VA and his response was that he made the dog Auslese for the working side because he came for a good working family.  This is something unheard of since his time as President.  I would also like to see more grey dogs, bi colours and blacks being brought back.   It is no coincidence that many good working dogs that we see today are of these colours, or, have them in their bloodlines.

As for your comment regarding my own breeding experience I can only say that I did consistently produce above average animals but nothing that came near to a VA dog.  I gave up breeding following a dispute with the President of the SV over two dogs that I bought in Germany who were by Leif v d Noriswand and, unfortunately, their papers were not correct as their sire on the papers was Hanno v d Wienerau whereas the true sire was Sasko v d Noriswand.   The breeder from Noriswand, Bernd Ruckert, suffered no penalty and was let off completely.  I was also disillusioned with the way the breed was developing, particularly with the way the inbreed and bottlenecks were taking us.  There was no prospect of change on the horizon.  I only follow the breed these days although I did buy a female four years ago for a pet  from Karl Fuller (Kirschental).   I do not think that you are lacking but I suspect, like many others outside of Germany, good breeding material is difficult and expensive to come by and, this alone, is not good for producing consistantly good animals.

Mackenzie  

Blitzen, I don't bring up lines, my comments are about improving VA dogs, that happen to be so closely inter related it has had negative impacts. YOU are the one always crying about SL vs WL.....IFFF we can't talk about shortcoming in the breed and how to fix them without feelings being hurt....that only tells me these people don't want to fix the breed in these areas....regardless of lines. You let someone post something about HD and your the first one to pass judgement on breeding practices and what should and should not be bred and even what's responsible....Well guess what there are other problems in the breed and why don't you suggest how to improve these areas. If people want to stop posting because they can't face the truth about issues in the breed...I really don't think they are a great loss. I am NOT a lines person but a total dog person, but I will not stop informing people of conditions and practices that hurt the breed cause a few of you feel bashed....and I criticize working and show alike but you seem to always overlook that. So you really have no credibility with me.
People are interested in why the SV is instituting the above, I and others believe it is to gain the benefit of everyone not going to a few select dogs....why don't they want everyone to go to a few select dog? Because of issues,....... so theses issues and cause shouldn't be discussed because people will stop participating?  Well, there are new people who want to understand what has occurred and I think they are entitled to understand....the people leaving aren't going to stop doing the things that have the breed in decline anyway....that's why they get offended. I think it's beneficial to have insightful discussion on what is occurring and let these new people decide for themselves what makes sense with what they see in the breed today. 

deleted...no point in hashing over the same old every few months expecting a different result.