Questions about Nature's Varaity Instinct LID Lamb dry food - Page 4

Seeofred,
No, irony or sarcasm. It was an educated guess! I am desperately trying to make a point here, but it is not going very well. In contrast, a raw fed poop, turns white and crushes like dust.... just saying. This food might take out all the "toxins" if that is your issue, but long term, just think about the stress on the organs. I do believe that about the moisture robbing that is happening. I have had a dog develop spleen cancer. And pancreatitis. You will do what you think is best, like I would do, I am aware of that. Just  think about it, what you have described with the point I am trying to make. I'm not pushing books either, just thought there was common sense to be had.
 

Pooping 4 times a day is A LOT. That could possibly mean that the food, even though he seems to be gaining weight) is going right through him. I fed a food that did that to my dogs. Too much poop so I changed.

Barb

Barb,

He used to poop 2 times per day on Orijen, However those stools very very volumes and sometimes runny. On Instinct LID his poop is minimum 70 percent smaller then the one on Orijen. Also on average after the food intake his poop does not happen after 13+ hours. 

Bee,
No way do I begrudge Dr Becker's educating owners on balanced diets.  But the idea that an unbalanced diet is more dangerous than possibly contaminated commercial products is unrealistic.  First of all, who balances the human diet?  My pets have a more balanced diet than I do for sure and I still get around.  Secondly, deficiencies take a long time to develop and can generally be recognized and treated before they become debilitating.  Melamine in pet food could kill an animal in just a few days. 
The Dog Food Project nutritionist updates all the recalls and has new information on various pet food trends.  She also has a Facebook site that is current, but, other than not reviewing the latest brands (which is overwhelming for any individual), her general discussions on ingredients and additives are very relevant.
Regarding Montmorillonite clay, it is considered to be an overall plus in terms of adding minerals and micronutrients to human and pet diets.  It is absorbtive, so for already hard stools it would not be desirable.  And dogs do eat dirt when their stomachs are upset or if their minerals are low.  They would be better off getting the clay in their food than from whatever they dig up!

Eldee,
My dog's TLI was 6ug/L which is low normal I guess.  These tests were done a while ago and I don't remember what they mean.  If you want to get scared you should read how all breeds are having similar problems at http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/natural_balance.html .  My dog was also on digestive enzymes just as a "no harm, may help" basis, but for the expense (used for 3 meals a day), the results were minimal. 
Besides my idea that salmonella over a long term in young dogs can do damage (diagnosed slightly enlarged liver), I have a few other theories:
Each of the Diamond manufactured brands I fed my dog(Natural Balance, Wellness and Diamond) which were all recalled for salmonella also each had 2 sources of copper(proteinate and sulphate).  I couldn't understand why the extra supplementation since copper toxicity exists and one symptom is thick, sticky foamy saliva which my dog had.  Also copper sulphate kills bacteria in our lake and might affect the intestinal flora.  My second concern was that."meals" are 300 times the concentrated protein of natural meat, which could require extra enzymes to break the meal down.  So I switched to a kibble without meal (Halo) and only 1 copper source, and the dog started gaining weight. This is when the episodes became less frequent.  Since then I switched again to a locally manufactured product which is granular.  So, because it is not extruded, it is prepared at lower temperatures and retains more enzymes/nutritional value.  It also does not contain all the starch required to hold kibble together.  It's about 91% animal based ingredients including organ meats.  My dog "spit up" once this month, not the wretching bloody vomit like before, and no diarrhea.  This all transpired over a year and a half so the food transitions were not the problem.
I think very highly of Honest Kitchen which is raw and obviously not extruded and should give you similar results, but my dogs lost interest in it for some reason

Seeofred,
Diarrhea can be caused by feeding too much or the dog eating too fast.  If you dog hasn't eaten all day, he may gulp instead of chew and whole kibble pieces would sit in his stomach, absorbing even more fluids in order to break down.  And, if dry kibble in water expands 60%, wouldn't your dog have almost the equivalent of 7 cups of food in his stomach if you feed 4 1/2 cups of dry at one meal?  I would try splitting it up if possible.  It worked for me.

Micaho,

Please, think about this. Your M-clay binds, therefore it is not adding anything. The only thing it does is show what has already been bound to it, before it goes into your pet. Therefore, if your food is being judged only with lab testings, for example... for calcium, by george, your food shows it up! Yet it doesn't get absorbed by the dog... it stays bound, and right on back out, laying bricks as they go!  That does seem to be the nature of ridding oneself of toxins?  Binding and out...!  (And this stuff is coming from Utah, not any where nears France, lol, I'm sure you don't care, except one should note the product itself, is far from uniform.

Good luck, enjoy your food. Your determined to defend the mud. Can't say I didn't try, lol.

Bee

Bee,

I don't use clay.  But its inclusion in a pet food would not prevent me from trying the product if I liked the other ingredients and my dog had loose stools.

Micaho:

Here is my advice, remembering of course this is the internet and there are alot of whack jobs out here giving advice. But I think I know of what I speak, because over the past year I have had to learn about dog nutrition and dog digestion in order to keep Maya thriving.

I believe a TLI score of 6 is pretty low, and indicative of a low functioning pancreas. Coupled with the symptoms your dog is having, I would say, in my opinion, he may need a bit of help digesting his food, no matter what you feed him.
I believe the reason you say the enzymes didn't do much good, was because you were probably supplementing with plant based enzymes.
There are two types of enzymes for canine consumption.The plant based enzymes are for dogs that need just a little bit of help digesting their food and simply won't help a dog that isn't producing sufficient enzymes. At the level of 6, your dog does not have EPI, however it is on the low end of normal and I feel that is why your enzymes didn't show any result.
The other kind of enzymes are pork based enzymes and they are called pancreatin enzymes. You can, in fact, pick these up in a health food store and they are called Pancreatin 4X. ( the 4X means the strength ). Animals need animal based enzymes, not plant based enzymes.
I have Maya on 6X strength and I have to special order them from enzyme diane at enzymediane.com at half the cost of the vet ones.
Also, creon capsules, are the other alternative. they are coated pancreatin enzymes in capsule form and you simply feed them to your dog right before a meal or open the capsule and sprinkle them on the soaked kibble or canned. If I were you I would try 1 creon 5 for 1 cup of food to start.

They  come in strengths of 5, 10, or 25.  these numbers are Canadian and I think they are different in the US. 6, 12 etc..
They aren't cheap in the US but quite a few of the US members on my EPI site order them through a canadian on line pharmacy.

You would have to review this with your vet, as he would have to give you a prescription for creon so you could order it. See what your vet thinks of this suggestion.

My next piece of advice is to start giving your dog B-12. Either your vet should or you should start with a shot. It is simply amazing the results you see happen when  a dog that has low B-12 and digestive issues starts on a course of B-12. Most dogs with low pancreatic function don't have enough of the enzyme, intrinsic factor, to protect any B-12 from food from being destroyed by stomach acid. Here is a link for the Vitamin B-12 with intrinsic factor made by wonder labs,  I give Maya one capsule daily and her B-12 levels are back to normal. http://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881

Eldee,

Thank you for the recommendations.  My dog was on pancreatin enzymes from the vet.  When I switched to the food with low processed organ meats such as liver, pancreas, kidney, etc., I left out the enzymes.  Even when I used powdered enzymes over the kibble, the pieces didn't break down as much as the granular product's consistency to begin with (I mix the granular with water and add canned meat for supplemental feeding, i.e., without additional vitamins.)  He was sick more often on the enzymes than since I stopped using them.
The advice about the B-12 is something I will keep in mind and save the website.  My dog's B-12 test results were 545 out of a 249-733 range, so the vet didn't offer shots.  My dog was diagnosed positive for SIBO (high folate) in the past.  He was eating poop and anything else he could chew.  It is possible a foreign object in the intestines could be the problem, but nothing that showed up on ultrasound. 

Bee,

I would agree with you that I would not use scoops of any clay for a pet no matter who recommends it.  I just think that the miniscule amount added in the pet food manufacturing process wouldn't be harmful.  If it shows down digestion, more nutrients are absorbed into the body, which is why it produces a more solid poop.  I think it's the amount of kibble absorbing the fluid in the intestines that makes it hard and dry.  JMO.

Micaho:  my last post I don't want to be accused of going on and on.......

When you treat the food ( kibble ) with enzymes there is a strict regime you have to follow.  Because the enzymes have to reach every single piece of kibble you either have to grind the kibble first, or soak the kibble in warm water until it breaks down.Then you add the enzymes ( 1 teaspoon per cup of food ) and then you have to sit it for half an hour or so while the enzymes predigest the food in the bowl. It is rather soupy but at least you know you are giving your dog predigested food.  that is how the enzymes have to be given. there is no way around it.  If not incubated for half an hour, they don't work and because they are caustic they can and often do cause mouth sores.

That is why the creon capsules are so terrific.  Because the enzymes inside the capsule are encapsulated (protected ) they can be fed along with every meal. Creon works inside the dog to digest the food, the enzymes you had work in the bowl predigesting the food first before it is fed.  you have to soak the food then add the enzymes then sit it again for the enzymes to work. I make up the next day's meals in a glass  bowl and after the enzymes have soaked in the food for half an hour I put it in the fridge. There was no way Maya would wait that long for her meals each time that is why it is in the fridge for the next day.  She eats it cold, no problem.Dinner she gets a can of grain free, gluten free dog food with creon capsules.

You may want to investigate gluten free dog foods as the gluten slows down and clogs up the dogs intestines, which isn't so good for a dog that already doesn't digest well.

If your dog presents symptoms again after the course of antibiotics he is on, then you should discuss the above with your vet and see what he/she thinks.

take care and I hope your pup stays well.