so how good were the old dogs? - Page 4

I too share the warped principles mentioned above !

Hired Dog, there's a new temperament test here in Canada that is required before a GSD can get 'Excellent Select' status in the show ring. And those dogs that reacted to the PA would NOT pass it!

It incorporates some things from the traffic-steady BH. The dog has to show no fear when walking along a road, with traffic passing by (and a car beeping its horn.) It also has to remain calm in a crowd of people (NOT just 4 people, as in the BH) who are pressing in close, and whooping and hollering like their favourite team scored a game-winning goal.

It also includes the regular TT stuff, such as meeting a friendly stranger, aloof stranger, and a threatening stranger, plus loud noises such as gunshots and someone rattling a bucket of bolts or chains.

My female did the test last summer and passed with flying colours.

Sunsilver, I am thinking that it will be a very cold, frozen as a matter of fact, day in hell when the AKC allows that to happen here. The show crowd wont like it, it will mean a lot of dogs may have to be eliminated from the ring, that means money will be lost, etc, etc. 
During this show this last weekend, a gentleman showed up with a solid black GSD, he was not showing, he was simply there to observe, but, his dog had a prong collar on...he was kicked out of the show grounds for it.

On a lighter note, I did notice one vendor who sold working dogs equipment, sleeves, suits, bite wedges, the chokers and prongs were hidden...he knew better. I asked him why he bothered to set up that sort of equipment there...he said that he sold a few sleeves to people with tiny dogs which of course made no sense to me, so, I asked him why..what did they do with them? He said they thought the sleeves were like little hiding places the dogs can curl up in and they can carry them around like that...I had no idea what to say to that.
Congrats on your female passing this test, she sounds like a great dog.

LOL@ little hiding places to curl up in.....
I did have one of my young GSDs that liked to stick his head in the sleeve when it was on the ground and walk around with it stuck over his head.LOL But he also liked to pick up a bottle of beer that was set on the ground, turn it over gently, and drink the beer as it glugged out..;-)

LOL, Joan!

My groomer said she had a rottie mix who would ever-so-casually walk past the coffee table, and knock her beer bottle over with his tail, so he could have a drink.

It happened far to often to be a coincidence.

Hired Dog, I have to admit I was very surprised when I found out about this. Historically the GSDCC has followed lock-step with its U.S. counterpart. I am very glad to see that has changed!

Doesn't the American breed standard say something about 'courage'??    Or have they watered it down yet again?

Sunsilver...the courage you speak of consists of having the testicular fortitude to walk in the show ring without actually decorating it with feces...all the way from the crate.

The biggest part of the problem in my eyes (IMHO) is that there are so MANY, even so called experts who can not SEE the difference in the social aggression from fear. I've seen Many dogs who their owners tout as being tough, be almost uncontrollable socially. Those type of owners seem to LIKE this!!! But even a dog who (again, IMHO), appears confidant, by not cowering or peeing or ears back etc, a dog that is forward, ears up etc. and in the face of strangers, can STILL be acting out of fear! One has to understand how a dog thinks to understand what they are seeing and to be able to decipher whether it's fear or not.  A dog is proactive in their thinking. But that I mean, a dog who perceives that something should be feared will chase it away BEFORE it has a chance to harm him. They do not wait for that "something" to become a real threat, they act before it can BE a threat.  Unprovoked social aggression is usually fear based because of this, even if the dog appears confidant.  A truly confidant dog will not show inappropriate aggression. Confidant dogs are watchers. Taking it all in and acting appropriately. I do want to add that some social aggression is taught and encouraged, or is the bi-product of poor and unbalanced training. This makes it even harder to judge why a dog is being inappropriately socially aggressive. Myself... I don't think inappropriate social aggression should ever be acceptable. To me the ideal dog socially, will BE there if appropriate and have the clear headedness to distinguish the difference or when not to and when to act aggressively.
   I bring this up because I believe dogs have been mistaken for being confidant and strong, when they truly are NOT. Breeding these dogs to otherwise nervy dogs to try to improve nerves can be a disaster, obviously.
JMHO

"the worried look, tail tucked, noise sensitive, fearful in new places,barely be walked without flaming up on everybody or peeing in their place if somebody attempts to pet"



Gustav...you have described one of my dogs to a tee.......but hey, she is a pretty dog with good hips...LOL

You have no idea how many times people have argued with me that this is a result of her being chained to a dog house for the first year of her life before I got her, and I tell them that it is the result of poor breeding. She is 3 1/2 yrs old now, and is a dog that will just have to be managed for the rest of her life, kept in her comfort zone as she is very capable of inflicting harm if she is not managed carefully.

I have more scars from this one dog on my forearms than I care to count, if she is put in a position that causes her to become stressed, she is a mess of uncontrolled snapping teeth that have caught me on more that one occasion.

But the point is.....where is the righteous indignation from the breed is better today crowd? Some won't even post about this....you haven't seen this? You think it is alright because the parents had titles and hip certs?, prosecutors won't prosecute a shy bite cause the dog couldn't help themself?  You see folks, the only place for these dogs are over protective pet home....dogs can't work, dogs can't do sport, I hope the dogs can't be shown, so in essence this is pet home breeding....is this what this noble breed is trending toward??? When I hear the concerns of some and see the lack of concern about this development....how can you respect the knowledge or comments of the mute?