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by supakamario on 28 November 2012 - 20:11
by supakamario on 28 November 2012 - 20:11
pics arent great ill try to take some better ones tomorrow, just figured out how to even put pics up here...........didnt think they where fat, or skinny
by Prager on 28 November 2012 - 22:11
Look here is what I know. We are talking about probability and not about definitive numbers. These studies were done many other times always with similar results. You can flip coin 20 times and get 20 heads and you can have 120 lb 6 mo old pups with eventually great hips. But what are ads of that?
Genetically bigger type dogs within breed, genetically medium sized dog which are fed to be big and bigger breeds have higher statistically significant probability of bad hips.
Why?
GSD is a medium dog by design. I would say females about 55 - 80 lb and and males about 75 to 90 lb at about 2 years of age is where it should be. There are breeders who produce, because people are willing to buy, dogs as far as possible above this standard. There are people who are making genetically medium GSD to be big by overfeeding him/her super foods. Neither is what GSD should be. GSD is not designed to be 100+lb. In such huge GSDs the ossification ( deposition of minerals) of bones needs to progress in much faster way in order for the bones to be strong enough to support such weight. However the GSD's absorption of minerals is not as fast for that to happen efficiently and properly and parallel with the fast growth. Thus there is a discrepancy between the size and the ability of the dog to absorb the minerals to support proper ossification. Where when the dog is growing slowly then there is time for the ossification to take hold and bones are dense and have time to develop properly. It is akin my example of the overferilized tree which needs stake for support or it will bend or brake, where in the woods the same type of a tree grows slowly and without supporting stake nex to it needed.
As far as 40 lb at 6 mo goes I know that it is very dramatic yes iconoclastic notion for most. But that is what is being found .
There is another study and it is believed that pups under 20 lb at 60 days of age will rarely have bad hips. This study also says that at 60 days pups weighing about 14 lb had 4% more HD then pups weighing 13 pounds.That is only 1 lb difference! This study involved 222 GSD and both parents were dysplastic. Thus even one pound of genetically predisposed dog to HD have 4% more HD which is statistically significant , the study states. ( Riser WH, et al. Influence ofr early rapid growth and weight gain on Hip Dysplasia of German shepherd dog. J.AM Vet Med Ass1964,;145: 661-668. )
I am such a nut that I have found many road killed Coyotes and dragged them into the desert and then came some time later to look at skeleton. Every time what I have seen were perfect hips. There is genetic and environmental reason for that, but we are talking about environmental reasons here. Thus let me ask have you ever seen fat coyote? No. Do they eat short term balanced diet? No. They eat bugs, berries, mice, lizards, now and then a rabbit and often nothing. However long term their diet is superbly well balanced and it is also in balance with the environment where the coyote lives. Thus sometimes coyote eats and his system utilizes one type of a nutrition and in later time different type of nutrition. And thus, inevitably in short term the coyote lack this and then tat. That leads to slow growth of dense well ossified bones. Again the tree example:The tree in desert which grows slowly has dense wood. Like Ironwood.
Coyote is in perfect fighting weight with pretty much 0 to very little fat. How much would medium sized GSD with 0 or very little fat weight at 6 mo? About 35- 40 lb.
I believe that if you feed short term balanced supper food then your dog is growing too fast and may be too fat on top of it and you are hurting your dog with love and best of intentions.
Hans
Genetically bigger type dogs within breed, genetically medium sized dog which are fed to be big and bigger breeds have higher statistically significant probability of bad hips.
Why?
GSD is a medium dog by design. I would say females about 55 - 80 lb and and males about 75 to 90 lb at about 2 years of age is where it should be. There are breeders who produce, because people are willing to buy, dogs as far as possible above this standard. There are people who are making genetically medium GSD to be big by overfeeding him/her super foods. Neither is what GSD should be. GSD is not designed to be 100+lb. In such huge GSDs the ossification ( deposition of minerals) of bones needs to progress in much faster way in order for the bones to be strong enough to support such weight. However the GSD's absorption of minerals is not as fast for that to happen efficiently and properly and parallel with the fast growth. Thus there is a discrepancy between the size and the ability of the dog to absorb the minerals to support proper ossification. Where when the dog is growing slowly then there is time for the ossification to take hold and bones are dense and have time to develop properly. It is akin my example of the overferilized tree which needs stake for support or it will bend or brake, where in the woods the same type of a tree grows slowly and without supporting stake nex to it needed.
As far as 40 lb at 6 mo goes I know that it is very dramatic yes iconoclastic notion for most. But that is what is being found .
There is another study and it is believed that pups under 20 lb at 60 days of age will rarely have bad hips. This study also says that at 60 days pups weighing about 14 lb had 4% more HD then pups weighing 13 pounds.That is only 1 lb difference! This study involved 222 GSD and both parents were dysplastic. Thus even one pound of genetically predisposed dog to HD have 4% more HD which is statistically significant , the study states. ( Riser WH, et al. Influence ofr early rapid growth and weight gain on Hip Dysplasia of German shepherd dog. J.AM Vet Med Ass1964,;145: 661-668. )
I am such a nut that I have found many road killed Coyotes and dragged them into the desert and then came some time later to look at skeleton. Every time what I have seen were perfect hips. There is genetic and environmental reason for that, but we are talking about environmental reasons here. Thus let me ask have you ever seen fat coyote? No. Do they eat short term balanced diet? No. They eat bugs, berries, mice, lizards, now and then a rabbit and often nothing. However long term their diet is superbly well balanced and it is also in balance with the environment where the coyote lives. Thus sometimes coyote eats and his system utilizes one type of a nutrition and in later time different type of nutrition. And thus, inevitably in short term the coyote lack this and then tat. That leads to slow growth of dense well ossified bones. Again the tree example:The tree in desert which grows slowly has dense wood. Like Ironwood.
Coyote is in perfect fighting weight with pretty much 0 to very little fat. How much would medium sized GSD with 0 or very little fat weight at 6 mo? About 35- 40 lb.
I believe that if you feed short term balanced supper food then your dog is growing too fast and may be too fat on top of it and you are hurting your dog with love and best of intentions.
Hans
by Eldee on 28 November 2012 - 23:11
Hans, that was well worth the read. thank you.
by Keith Grossman on 28 November 2012 - 23:11
Not trying to argue with you, Hans, and I absolutely agree that dogs should be kept lean side but different dogs mature at different rates. Here's my pup last week...
Does he look even the slightest bit fat to you at slightly more than 4 months old and well over the 40 lb. weight you claim is appropriate for a 6 month old dog?
Does he look even the slightest bit fat to you at slightly more than 4 months old and well over the 40 lb. weight you claim is appropriate for a 6 month old dog?
by rtdmmcintyre on 29 November 2012 - 00:11
Keith you dog looks fine, but update your furniture. Looks like it came from Grandma's house in the 60's.
sorry
Reggie
sorry
Reggie
by Prager on 29 November 2012 - 00:11
Keith . Please understand that I am not arguing with you but just clarifying and emphasizing what I am trying to say. Remember it is not just about dog being too fat. But also, very importantly being too big (tall) or better yet I am warning against fat and FAST growing dog. You can have skinny huge fast growing dog. That dog"s bone structure will support a lot of weight,... same as fat dog's.
By the way nice pup!
Hans
By the way nice pup!
Hans
by Keith Grossman on 29 November 2012 - 00:11
LMAO, Reggie. We'll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes fashionable furniture but if it comes down to what you like or what grandma likes and she is worth millions...grandma wins every time!
by rtdmmcintyre on 29 November 2012 - 00:11
Hey at least we agree on your choice of dogs
by Prager on 29 November 2012 - 00:11
The furniture may be out of style but I bet it is more comfortable and durable then the new crap.
Hans
Hans
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