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by Ibrahim on 03 November 2012 - 22:11
Hundmutter,
As I said I am reading about drives, here's something interesting in regards to your dog:
Quote:
This is not to say that one has a weaker drive than the other, but rather it would be more correct to define the dogs differently according to their thresholds of stimulation. Thresholds describe how small or how large a stimulus can be and still elicit the same type of reponse. For example, rolling a ball for some dog will not stimulate a prey response, but the same dog will actively chase a squirrel or cat. In this case we do not make the mistake of saying the dog only has "cat drive" or stating that the dog's prey drive is "low". Instead, we should describe the dog as having a higher prey threshold than a dog that eagerly chases both the ball and the cat. As a protection dog trainer, it is important to understand this concept, as our strategies toward training the dog will largely be determined by the dog's drive thresholds. For some dogs, the mere sight of a tug toy drives them into a frenzy, while for others, the decoy must do lots of running and swinging of the tug to get a satisfactory response. For my sake, I would not fault the latter dog's prey drive, I would simply say he has a high prey threshold. While many trainers would not call the latter dog as desireable, it would be mainly due to their own laziness to describe him as such. It is more convenient for the trainer to have low prey threshold dogs because we are not required to work as hard to get the same level of response from them.
As I said I am reading about drives, here's something interesting in regards to your dog:
Quote:
This is not to say that one has a weaker drive than the other, but rather it would be more correct to define the dogs differently according to their thresholds of stimulation. Thresholds describe how small or how large a stimulus can be and still elicit the same type of reponse. For example, rolling a ball for some dog will not stimulate a prey response, but the same dog will actively chase a squirrel or cat. In this case we do not make the mistake of saying the dog only has "cat drive" or stating that the dog's prey drive is "low". Instead, we should describe the dog as having a higher prey threshold than a dog that eagerly chases both the ball and the cat. As a protection dog trainer, it is important to understand this concept, as our strategies toward training the dog will largely be determined by the dog's drive thresholds. For some dogs, the mere sight of a tug toy drives them into a frenzy, while for others, the decoy must do lots of running and swinging of the tug to get a satisfactory response. For my sake, I would not fault the latter dog's prey drive, I would simply say he has a high prey threshold. While many trainers would not call the latter dog as desireable, it would be mainly due to their own laziness to describe him as such. It is more convenient for the trainer to have low prey threshold dogs because we are not required to work as hard to get the same level of response from them.
by Ibrahim on 03 November 2012 - 22:11
With defense drive particularly, it is key to note that there also exists and upper threshold, namely, the point at which the dog changes from biting in defense, to fleeing in defense. I would argue for prey that the upper threshold marks the boundary between a dog that simply wants to chase and bite the prey, to the point where the dog wants to chase, kill and consume the prey. Considering this last statement, you can see how, as discussed previously, the general lack of desire to chase, kill and consume prey in the domestic dog, indicates how the prey threshold for the dog has been elevated by the domestication process.
by Ibrahim on 03 November 2012 - 22:11
by Ibrahim on 03 November 2012 - 22:11
by Ibrahim on 03 November 2012 - 22:11
beetree said: I do think the difference between them is that PLAY drive does not end in a fight to the death, only the defeat of the challenger. In PREY drive the dog wants a kill as a conclusion.
That is really interesting/intelligent notice
That is really interesting/intelligent notice
by Hundmutter on 04 November 2012 - 08:11
The notes on Threshold are really interesting; the only thing I see a bit odd is: this is in
the order one usually finds it mentioned i.e. dog chases actual prey but not interested
in a ball or toy. Hence the higher the 'threshold' the harder the handler has to work to
promote interest in the ball. Used to that with other dogs. Taz is reversed, for some reason.
[ I'm not COMPLAINING about that btw, makes living in the countryside easier! Just curious.]
Thanks for finding those other links too.
the order one usually finds it mentioned i.e. dog chases actual prey but not interested
in a ball or toy. Hence the higher the 'threshold' the harder the handler has to work to
promote interest in the ball. Used to that with other dogs. Taz is reversed, for some reason.
[ I'm not COMPLAINING about that btw, makes living in the countryside easier! Just curious.]
Thanks for finding those other links too.
by Markobytes on 04 November 2012 - 15:11
Ibrahim,
I would not use the term civil to describe a dog that is human versus equipment oriented, civil to me describes how reactive a dog is towards humans in all aspects of life not just training. I have known dogs that are prey oriented that are not focused on equipment and I have seen dogs that are more defense oriented that are equipment oriented due to their training, a bite suit can be equipment Civil to me is an over the top reaction on the fight-flight continuum with the dog giving very little if no distance increasing signals, I don't want a dog that is focused on equipment and I don't want a dog that is civil. I would invite others to give their interpretation of this as it is not really in my realm, I am not involved in law enforcement training and do not pretend to be. Many of these drives described can fall within other drives or be part of the same continuum. Most will fall within the Hunt-Prey drive or the often called Defense drive Fight-Flight continuum and Play drive is just a rehearsal of one or both drives. The Prey-Hunt drive probably starts with hunger and ends if successful with consummation, tug can be a rehearsal of an after the kill pack oriented ripping apart of the prey and therefore can be bonding.
I would not use the term civil to describe a dog that is human versus equipment oriented, civil to me describes how reactive a dog is towards humans in all aspects of life not just training. I have known dogs that are prey oriented that are not focused on equipment and I have seen dogs that are more defense oriented that are equipment oriented due to their training, a bite suit can be equipment Civil to me is an over the top reaction on the fight-flight continuum with the dog giving very little if no distance increasing signals, I don't want a dog that is focused on equipment and I don't want a dog that is civil. I would invite others to give their interpretation of this as it is not really in my realm, I am not involved in law enforcement training and do not pretend to be. Many of these drives described can fall within other drives or be part of the same continuum. Most will fall within the Hunt-Prey drive or the often called Defense drive Fight-Flight continuum and Play drive is just a rehearsal of one or both drives. The Prey-Hunt drive probably starts with hunger and ends if successful with consummation, tug can be a rehearsal of an after the kill pack oriented ripping apart of the prey and therefore can be bonding.
by Rasenhof on 04 November 2012 - 15:11
I heard that ring sport needed a 'Good Temperament'. Then you train the obnoxious pup to channel his strong enthusiasm toward a ball, chew toy, sleeve, vest, etc. as he grows up. A Good Temperamented pup likes to chew on people and you teach him that ankles, legs, hands and so forth are not chew toys! Really ouch! A good temperamented dog goes amidst people at dog shows, shopping malls, up and down sidewalks, loose at herding training and ignores other people, and dogs. If a Good Temperamented dog sees someone trying to attack his person, it should show aggression toward that attacker. Not any one else. So of course you want that wonderful temperament in any sport, ring, schutzhund, herding, obedience, show, any contact with humans or other dogs. This happy pup turns into a happy dog. The agressiveness is a separate part of the dogs personality. This is trained into what you want. Why would any dog naturally attack a sleeve, unless trained? The sleeve is simply sitting on an arm. But if that sleeve is on an arm that is serously threating the dogs person, then attacking the sleeve is reasonable. Of course lots of training. The VA's at the Sieger Shows usually have SchH3 and often IP3 titles. Many people poo poo the show line dogs. But how often do you need protection?. Just having a GSD is usually enough. Also other protective dogs as well. For serious ring sport you want a very obnoxious pup, For SchH also. I once was involved with a litter of all Ger. bred pups. They fought amongst themselves a lot. Also one would attach himself to my leg and hang on as I walked doing my chores. Thankfully my kids (human) were grown up. What a disaster for young children. So I prefer herding personalities. Less problems. Alice
by Slamdunc on 04 November 2012 - 15:11
a bite suit can be equipment
A bite suit, trial or bite sleeve, hidden sleeve, etc are all equipment and very obvious to a dog.
A bite suit, trial or bite sleeve, hidden sleeve, etc are all equipment and very obvious to a dog.
by susie on 04 November 2012 - 16:11
Love you, Slamdunc...
At that point we are in prey again...
The difficulty in my opinion is that a dog doesn´t know about drives. Their behavior is the result of inherited characteristics, drives, the way it was raised and socialized, the way it was trained ( or not...) and on and on...The grown up dog is the result of all, no difference to a human, but the dog doesn´t think about it´s drives, it always reacts to stimulations. A good trainer knows when to give which stimulations to achieve what he wants.
Out of my experience every dog is an individual, never found two to be the same.
A little bit off topic, but important: Most of the males (!) I raised by myself, out of totally different lines, became very protectiv / civil. Either I choosed always the same kind of puppy and/or I tend to raise them in a way they develop similar
At that point we are in prey again...
The difficulty in my opinion is that a dog doesn´t know about drives. Their behavior is the result of inherited characteristics, drives, the way it was raised and socialized, the way it was trained ( or not...) and on and on...The grown up dog is the result of all, no difference to a human, but the dog doesn´t think about it´s drives, it always reacts to stimulations. A good trainer knows when to give which stimulations to achieve what he wants.
Out of my experience every dog is an individual, never found two to be the same.
A little bit off topic, but important: Most of the males (!) I raised by myself, out of totally different lines, became very protectiv / civil. Either I choosed always the same kind of puppy and/or I tend to raise them in a way they develop similar
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