GSDs back in the days - question - Page 4

I can see the evolution, but not the improvement...  Same as with GSD's.  IMPO, if a dog is to be shown, or bred, it should be able to work in some fashion and have a temperament that is typical of the breed.

Ummm....there are Show Lines dogs working & have worked as Police K9's....(fact).
I for one, appreciate both "types", SL & WL.

 Quote: Working dogs their tempements are mostly neurotic and not good companiion, pets or childrens dogs, certainly not family dogs.

So, where are all these dogs that cannot be around people ? Is it the dog, or is it the dipshit that owns them ? There are also plenty of children that have no discipline, and the dog takes the hit when the child dives on the dog and gets bit, or tries to ride the dog and gets bit. 

There are nervebags everywhere, however, weak people do not put the dog where he belongs, which is in the ground, but try and pawn the dog off on a "special" home. When I was a kid, if you got bit, my parents would ask me what I did to the dog to get bitten, often with an arm grabbing and dragged off the the bathroom to get cleaned up.

If the dog was unsound, it was shot. No questions asked.

Kinda like how I feel when some dork writes about things that they have little knowledge of, like what most working dogs are like.

You SL folks crack me up! Who are you kidding with defending the horrendous working ability and freakish structure of the modern SL GSD.  The modern SL is way over angulated and way to large.  The GSD is supposed to be a medium sized dog!  Lets take one of these behemoths to a herding field and see how long they last with a heard of sheep.  Lets take one of these behemoths and see if they can jump out of a police car window, run 2 blocks then make an apprehension.

"Ummm....there are Show Lines dogs working & have worked as Police K9's....(fact)."

Just because you say so, it does not make it fact.  I bet there has not been a police K9 with BSZS VA or V sire and dam for 2 generations since the early 1980's.  Now here is a fact, click the link below for this working SL GSD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM&feature=related

When you breed for pure aesthetics, working ability will be lost.  You want more proof look at the working ability of every single working breed type of dog that holds any sort of AKC conformation title.  Not a working trait left amongst the lot.

Jean Duff, your entire post is rubbish and a poor excuse for promoting sub par working dogs.  Please go and ruin another breed and leave the GSD alone. "Our dogs all do a degree of work still although we have given up competitive Sch having taken a dog to Sch H 3 and trained others to Sch 1 and Sch 2."  Yeah right!   Degree being the opperative word.  I'd say  the smallest degree possible.  If your dogs are so great why don't you title them at local trials along side WL GSD.  We'd love for you to join us.  Maybe then you could experience the true spirit and athleticism of the GSD envisioned by its founder Max von Stephanitz.

Kyle

Kyle,
No excuses, no hear say....I know for a fact, because I personally have bred 4 & bought 1.
4 SL dogs that I bred, shown & sold to the Police Depts.  1 SL puppy, bought in Germany, shown & sold later as a working K9.
The pedigrees on these dogs are from V-rated & VA rated parents or grandparents. Also leased a SL female of our breeding to the "organization", where they then bred her..(.had only 2 pups)...1 went on to be an active Police K9 & the female puppy was bought by an officer for their home.
Is it common?....I don't know the over all stats...but I do know that it has occurred, and hopefully continue.
There are 2 currently working the streets of Illinois, in Lake County & McHenry County.
The other 3 have since retired. ...We are currently raising another young prospect possibly for next year's candidates.


I appreciate both WL & SL....either must have the correct temperament.
Robin

I disagree with Jean Duff regarding the dogs of yesteryear. When I first came into the breed in 1970 the question of soundness was always talked about and sound dogs were more abundant than Jean implies. Characters were a bigger problem at that time and, was largely ignored when the conformation of the dog was the type desired. Unsound show dogs are rife today with their cow hocks and overregulation which is why Herr Meyer has taken up this issue. We have to distinguish between genuine working dogs and competition working dogs. The genuine working dogs are generally sound in temperament and do make good family companions, just ask any handler of these dogs as many are kept at home within a family environment. The modern competition dog has been developed mainly for it’s biting ability rather than it’s overall working qualities. Many of these dogs are way over the top when it comes to aggression.

The working qualification as given to showline dogs is a watered down exercise. We only have to look back at some of the dogs in the adult classes at the Sieger show in Germany. The emphasis has been on biting and, consequently, for many dogs the level of ability at the other exercises pays lip service only to the overall qualification. Many of these dogs had weak bites, control was also non existent for so called top dogs. The major problem arising from this is that if it is accepted for a long enough period it becomes acceptable.

The problems facing the breed today fall squarely at the feet of the breeders. Although some are more selective in their mating’s than others the tendency is still to carry on like sheep. Too may breeders use males to their females which only have credentials as top winning animals. Selection should be on the basis to improve on the females in the breeding chain. Mating to a VA dog is not a guarantee of improvement but an improvement in selling stock at inflated prices. Also, too many breeders have too many dogs with the knock on effect that without more human contact too many animals are ruined before adulthood. Breeding is not scientific but it is very labour intensive which is something so many are unwilling to do.

I could write much more but unfortunately it will only fall on deaf ears.

Mackenzie

The Breeding for aesthetics argument does cut both ways.  One has only to sample the ads fro pups in this site to see that just like SL's emphasize the "eye candy" aspect of their pups, a lot of WL's breeders seem focused on a few traits like "blocky heads", "dark sable" and such.  Why is it that every once in a while there is a discussion on "handler aggressive dogs" and other behavioral quirks????   Ideally, the salient trait to be bred for (on both lines) should be sound and relaible temperament.  Once that hurdle is cleared, then you can start thinking about color, etc.

While a lot of the blame has to be placed at the breeder's feet, they are just catering to a very ignorant sector of the market that is willing to pay exhorbitant prices for these dogs.  There are many examples of well bred WL dogs that were it not for the idiotic prejudice in the SL rings on color, could be very competitive in show.  By the same token, there are many SL's that are able to compete in trials regardless of the unnatural selection of traits by SL breeders.

Mackensie,
What you wrote may be falling on deaf ears but it doesn't change the fact that it is very accurate. I think you made many good points in your post and the ones that won't acknowledge them won't change them from being true. I acknowledge your points and there are others on here that also recognize your points. More importantly there are many less knowledgable people who from what they have experienced so far recognize your points but they refrain from posting because they are afraid of the ridicule and bullying.
Charlie 319,
I agree wholeheartedly that the asthectic knife cuts both ways. I know certain working subsets that because the focus is so heavy on grips, block heads, color, etc. will eventually end up like the showline dogs. Now the fallout in time may not be a lack of nerve, that permeates the showlines, because they started this crusade with dogs that genetically were not strong nervewise with Canto, and built on it to now. BUT, if you keep breeding the same subsets for block heads, color(black sable being a favorite), over the top prey grips, eventually you will have an UNBALANCED dog that may well be blackblack sable, or grips like an alligator, or more drive than brains, but you will have lost the UTILITY of the breed which is far more important. JMO
ps I know this post will annoy the SL people who love to hate my views, but hey I'm about balance even in my views, they are the ones on an extreme end.

Jean Duff
And what planet you are living on?
You have said in absolute terms:
 "There were in past only small, ugly bent legged people" ?

 "dogs of yesteryear were absolutely unsound in both mind and body".

"They were so frightened of their own shadows "

"Working dogs their tempements are mostly neurotic and not good companiion, pets or childrens dogs, certainly not family dogs"

 (they were shaking so) "judges used to say poor we thing is cold"

"it was most unusual to see a dog come and go correctly"


Have a nice day!!
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com  

 

 Quote: Kyle,
No excuses, no hear say....I know for a fact, because I personally have bred 4 & bought 1.
4 SL dogs that I bred, shown & sold to the Police Depts. 1 SL puppy, bought in Germany, shown & sold later as a working K9.
The pedigrees on these dogs are from V-rated & VA rated parents or grandparents. Also leased a SL female of our breeding to the "organization", where they then bred her..(.had only 2 pups)...1 went on to be an active Police K9 & the female puppy was bought by an officer for their home.

What were their jobs ? I would like to know if these were detection dogs. It takes about two weeks to train a good dog at the beginning level for detection. It is not brain surgery, and really easy for dogs.

There is also the assumption that a "K9" working for the police dept is a really powerful dog. Anyone that has sold dogs to police depts knows that if you sell them a strong dog, the chances improve dramatically that the dog is going to get all fucked up from their training, and be returned. This is true about an 80% of the time. It is NOT something that is going to change the direction of an arguement about working vs showline. Many people donate their dogs and that is all that the depts can afford, so they will train the dogs the best they can. Does NOT mean the dogs were worth shit.


The thing that disturbs me the most is the very unrealistic view that dipshit had about working dogs, and her willingness to spread it around.

Show line dogs should all be taken out and worked. If they cannot even come close, they should be neutered or spayed. I have no problem with a dog that can work, and not the showline peoples definition of it.  It is embarrassing that so many actually believe that their dogs are even close with some of the shitters I have seen that are "supposedly" titled. Embarrassing. Many of you should be ashamed of yourselves.