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by Abby Normal on 17 March 2012 - 20:03
None of your assumptions are correct.
You state above that Golo had the first significant improvement in 7 – 8 days, and yet in your original post you stated that your dog was up and walking a few metres before you started the clemmons protocol. I would have said that was the first significant improvement.
I agreed that it is possible that the protocol can induce a ‘plateau’ (the same as ‘slowed down’). What you describe is different to that. You cannot miss the signs of DM, that precede a dog going down completely, in as much as the symptoms may be subtle to begin with but become very pronounced over time with the dog losing control of the back legs, the legs becoming tangled and the dog involuntarily losing his standing position. What is not definitive is whether something else is the causative factor, and that needs to be investigated. As other posters have said there are other conditions that mimic DM. But more importantly your dog went down very suddenly without apparently showing the obvious signs as just described, because you couldn’t have missed those, and was back on his feet again soon after. That isn’t indicative of DM. it isn't a criticism, it is simply that what you have reported just doesn’t seem to fit with DM.
I would recommend that anyone do everything that they can afford to do, including the Clemmons protocol to try and help their dog. I would offer any support I possibly could. I would not however claim that anything could make their dog recover from being at the stage of being down with DM to being able take 'long walks' again.
I never suggested that you should have euthanized your dog, as that choice is one that is the sole right of an owner. I don’t think anyone has the right to condemn the choices that someone makes for their dog, especially one with a debilitating disease like DM, it is very personal to them, their situation and their dog.
I will end this discussion by echoing what Beetree said: You have no idea......
by AndyG on 17 March 2012 - 21:03
What amuses me is as how easily you toss my statements trying to prove your point of view. Why don't you mention Dr Clemmons success for thousands of dogs as it is non-existing, but always try to deliverately misread our story?
It looks as you have good writing abilities. Perhaps, your reading skills are equally good. So, please be so kind to re-read my posts and digest the content. You will see that I stated many times that Golo had been showing clear DM signs for several years before Feb 2010, but we didn't see that yet explained his problems by other reasons.
I could post more details, how two vets (actually two teams of vets from two hospitals) analyzed Golo's condition and why they ruled out other diseases mimiking DM. I could post more details about the progress of his DM before 2010, since now we know more about it and can see its signs from a different angle. But what is the point?
Well, nobody can get your loved ones back... However, other people still may have a chance to try. Don't take their chances out. Someone may be more successful than you. Many already had success and many will have.
I will be more than happy to share our experience and provide more details to people who need help.
by Jenni78 on 18 March 2012 - 01:03
Andy, I have nothing personal in this at all. I am simply a person who likes to study veterinary medicine, and your story doesn't fit DM. I want anyone reading this to see that there are other things it fits to a "T" in case that information will help someone reading it. That's all.
by starrchar on 18 March 2012 - 02:03
by AndyG on 18 March 2012 - 09:03
starrchar, you are right. I will be contacting Dr Clemmons on Monday. Last time I spoke with him two years ago. Though our system was based on Dr Clemmons protocols, it was different - different dosage and timing. Also, we gave him pills instead of solutions as recommended by Dr Clemmons. He just could not drink that stuff.
by Abby Normal on 18 March 2012 - 12:03
AndyG: . Your statements are your own - they are what they are. They are either true or they are not. You made them. I am not 'tossing' them - I am referring to them! Why are you so defensive about people suggesting that your dog is unlikely to have had DM? A better question maybe is why is it so important to you that your dog DID have DM? You have no concept of the experience of some of the people that have commented that the symptoms don't fit with it.
The question is more one of accuracy and what you are promoting to others as your success for DM, when it is questionable that you had a DM dog.
Would I recommend to others that they allow a DM dog to go up and down the stairs without assistance? No I would not, the lack of awareness as to where their back legs are, and the tendency for their weight as a result to fall more onto their forehand and consequently to unexpectedly go quite out of control when going down stairs is a recipe for disaster and a terrible accident waiting to happen. The worst possible advice IMO, for a DM dog.
Char - it is interesting because the dog was up and walking a few metres before he even started on the protocol, so the protocol may well have been quite incidental to recovery. I wonder if he will mention that to Dr Clemmons as well. Also that the foot being supersensitive - the complete opposite to DM. Hope expressing the bladder gets mentioned, because that is something I have never heard of with DM as well.
All these 'suddenlys' DM doesn't do 'sudden'. My bet is it was possibly FCE, which would have been revealed with an MRI or myelogram.
by Abby Normal on 18 March 2012 - 13:03
A personal response from Dr Clemmons via email to someone who had a DM (?) dog, who had some DM like symptoms and had 'presumed' DM, and had been on the Clemmons protocol, and had gone down 'suddenly'.
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Acute changes are not consistent with GSDM…. |
by AndyG on 18 March 2012 - 20:03
Why do you keep tossing my statements? I mentioned that "we thought that his foot was supersensitive" since we could not find any other explanations when he could not step on his leg. You immediately insinuated that the foot being supersensitive - the complete opposite to DM.
You still keep saying that DM cannot be sudden that's why it is questionable in the Golo's case, while I explained many times that we saw its signs many years before, but could not understand them properly.
The same with expressing the bladder. The dog could not walk normally and put his weight on the leg. So, he was helped to express the bladder. What does it have to do with DM or not DM? Expressing the bladder is common for ANY conditions where a dog cannot walk.
I am not defensive to prove that Golo had DM. Not at all. He was diagnosed with DM by two independent teams of vets while the protocol of Dr Clemmons with other things what we did really helped him. That's it. That's why I think that he had DM. I just really hate people who tries to toss clearly expressed statements to prove something.
Abby Normal, why are you so against Dr Clemmons' protocol and keep stating that DM improvement or slowing down is impossible, whilst Dr Clemmons' research shows the opposite?
Who are you and what is your hidden agenda here? Is there a reason why you cannot accept the success of Dr Clemmons?
by Abby Normal on 18 March 2012 - 21:03
I have no hidden agenda, and believe it or not had no intent to get into an 'argument' over this, but this is how it has developed. Like others who have questioned whether your dog had DM the reason is simple. It would be misleading to suggest to people with dogs with DM that they could achieve what you achieved (a return to a normal life, with a dog that was walking until the day he died) ........if your dog didn't actually have DM. Do you see? Recommending a dog that actually does have DM should go up and down stairs for exercise unassisted will lead to the dog likely breaking it's neck. Do you see? No, expressing the bladder is not common for DM. This is where your inexperience is evident.
I have recommended Dr Clemmons protocol many times to people, and have the highest regard for Dr Clemmons and his studies and methods. I have communicated with him several times. I have nothing against him or the protocol whatsoever. It is the first line of 'treatment' or at least the closest thing to it for a dog with DM.
That is not the issue here and you are continually failing to understand that. I have stated many times that reaching a plateau (slowing down progression) with Dr Clemmons protocol is entirely possible, though it doesn't work for all dogs. Getting a dog back to taking long walks again having been down with DM is not the same thing at all. My belief is that you are overstating what can be achieved, and the reason you are overstating it (quite unintentionally on your part), is because your dog did not have DM, so what could be achieved is naturally going to be entirely different. I understand that you believe that your dog had DM because that is what you were told. If that diagnosis is incorrect it is not your fault.
To be honest what you think of me is irrelevant. Just know that one of my GSDs god bless her cost me well over £10,000 to keep alive and relatively healthy. After 10k I stopped counting, it was too scary.
I will await your response from Dr Clemmons with interest. I do hope you will present the facts to him as you have presented them here. Maybe you could send him the summary you have outlined above. But I wonder AndyG, with all the nasty names you have called me and the accusations you have made against me and others - will you be prepared to apologise and be man enough to admit you were wrong if he tells you your dog most likely didn't have DM?
by starrchar on 18 March 2012 - 21:03
I have never heard of the need to express the bladder for a DM dog either. Again, I've also never heard of acute onset of DM, nor have I heard of a spontaneous recovery after beginning any kind of treatment. I have heard of this type of scenario with spinal injuries.
I feel it is important to educate people regarding their options, but even Dr. Clemmons website does not make any miraculous claims. The best one can hope for is a plateau for a time, but the disease will take the dog in the end unless something else takes it first. It's important to recognize that not everyone has the funds to do everything possible to deal with a debilitated dog, but I think most people on this board would do whatever they could to help their dog...and that means different things to different people. Abby, I know, would go to the ends of the earth for her dogs and to have anyone suggest otherwise I find upsetting. There are others that have commented on this thread who would do the same. I think the concern is that people will mislead by your statement.
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