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by Sunsilver on 15 January 2012 - 14:01
Echo, as I said above, sarcocystis rarely causes clinical disease. However, it is VERY COMMON in raw meat of domestic food animals. A study done in New Zealand found 98% of beef cattle were infected, and one done in the Southwestern States found 100% of cattle were infected.
So, if you feed raw, you dog IS going to have this parasite, no doubt about it. You just have to hope it doesn't cause problems. It can result in diarrhea and fever. I would assume very young dogs, very old dogs, and those whose immune systems are stressed from some other cause are most at risk.
Anyway, I woud very much like to hear what a veterinarian has to say about sarcocystis. Is it something you can just shrug off, and say, 'hey, no worries', or can it produce really serious disease? In cattle and wild animals, it can cause abortion, anemia and hair loss. Some types can affect the brain and cause death. However, that's in the intermediate host (herbivores) not the terminal host (carnivores).
From what I've found on the net (and the fact I've been involved with dogs for years, and only vaguely remember ever hearing about this beastie, ) I don't think it's something to worry about.
I just wish I could find conformation of that! Some of the articles say doctors really have NO IDEA how to treat it, if it does cause symptoms. And that, you've got to admit, is kind of scary!
So, if you feed raw, you dog IS going to have this parasite, no doubt about it. You just have to hope it doesn't cause problems. It can result in diarrhea and fever. I would assume very young dogs, very old dogs, and those whose immune systems are stressed from some other cause are most at risk.
Anyway, I woud very much like to hear what a veterinarian has to say about sarcocystis. Is it something you can just shrug off, and say, 'hey, no worries', or can it produce really serious disease? In cattle and wild animals, it can cause abortion, anemia and hair loss. Some types can affect the brain and cause death. However, that's in the intermediate host (herbivores) not the terminal host (carnivores).
From what I've found on the net (and the fact I've been involved with dogs for years, and only vaguely remember ever hearing about this beastie, ) I don't think it's something to worry about.
I just wish I could find conformation of that! Some of the articles say doctors really have NO IDEA how to treat it, if it does cause symptoms. And that, you've got to admit, is kind of scary!
by Von Ward Kennels on 15 January 2012 - 15:01
So how is it that my 7 adult dogs and all of the other dogs I have owned since feeding raw along with puppies have never showed any signs or symptoms from this parasite? Day after day, week after week, just very healthy dogs. Not to mention all of the other people out there feeding raw.This was the ONLY puppy that was said to have had this.
The owner has not responded to my ? of who the vet was.
Stephanie
The owner has not responded to my ? of who the vet was.
Stephanie
by EchoEcho on 15 January 2012 - 16:01
No Sunsilver what you said was:
"Echo, as with most parasites, sarcocystis is species specific, and the type that infects cattle and dogs is not the same that infects cattle and humans."
People need to know that isn't true. The same species that infects cattle can infect humans. Like I said... This isn't that common so don't everyone freak out.
In fact most parasites are NOT species specific. Most viruses are species specific however, most parasites can cross several species without an issue and it is actually part of their lifecycle. Almost all of the parasites that infect people originate from animal sources. The same thing can't be said for viruses. You don't catch a cold or the flu from your dog. Bacteria is kind of a crap shoot. Some bacteria infect animals and people and some don't. Most bacteria that infect people can be considered "normal flora" for that animal or don't cause disease in the animal but do cause disease in humans.
Making blanket statements like "So, if you feed raw, you dog IS going to have this parasite". You don't know that to be true to don't say things like that. There is no way to say that every dog who eats raw has this parasite unless you start doing studies. Dogs have an extremely acidic body that helps keep most bacteria and parasites from infecting them. That is one of the main reasons why dogs (and other animals) can eat dead animals and not get sick like people do. Also, if your dog has a good gut flora most bacteria and parasites can't infect them, same as people. Think of your gut as a grass lawn. If it is really thick and healthy then if a few seeds of weed get planted they can't grow because the healthy grass will "choke" them out. There won't be any space/place or nutrients available for the bad seed to take hold. This could explain why our dogs aren't all walking around infected with this bug. So how to do keep your normal flora (and your dogs normal flora) healthy? By feeding a diet that doesn't kill off the good flora and feeds the good flora. All the corn, additive, preservatives, wheat, soy, etc. feed bad bacteria. Acidic meat, some fruits, and vegetables will feed the good bacteria in your dogs gut. Some dogs are more sensitive to what they eat than others (just like people). This may explain why one dog may get infected and another dog may not and why some dogs need a raw diet to say healthy and some do okay on kibble.
"Echo, as with most parasites, sarcocystis is species specific, and the type that infects cattle and dogs is not the same that infects cattle and humans."
People need to know that isn't true. The same species that infects cattle can infect humans. Like I said... This isn't that common so don't everyone freak out.
In fact most parasites are NOT species specific. Most viruses are species specific however, most parasites can cross several species without an issue and it is actually part of their lifecycle. Almost all of the parasites that infect people originate from animal sources. The same thing can't be said for viruses. You don't catch a cold or the flu from your dog. Bacteria is kind of a crap shoot. Some bacteria infect animals and people and some don't. Most bacteria that infect people can be considered "normal flora" for that animal or don't cause disease in the animal but do cause disease in humans.
Making blanket statements like "So, if you feed raw, you dog IS going to have this parasite". You don't know that to be true to don't say things like that. There is no way to say that every dog who eats raw has this parasite unless you start doing studies. Dogs have an extremely acidic body that helps keep most bacteria and parasites from infecting them. That is one of the main reasons why dogs (and other animals) can eat dead animals and not get sick like people do. Also, if your dog has a good gut flora most bacteria and parasites can't infect them, same as people. Think of your gut as a grass lawn. If it is really thick and healthy then if a few seeds of weed get planted they can't grow because the healthy grass will "choke" them out. There won't be any space/place or nutrients available for the bad seed to take hold. This could explain why our dogs aren't all walking around infected with this bug. So how to do keep your normal flora (and your dogs normal flora) healthy? By feeding a diet that doesn't kill off the good flora and feeds the good flora. All the corn, additive, preservatives, wheat, soy, etc. feed bad bacteria. Acidic meat, some fruits, and vegetables will feed the good bacteria in your dogs gut. Some dogs are more sensitive to what they eat than others (just like people). This may explain why one dog may get infected and another dog may not and why some dogs need a raw diet to say healthy and some do okay on kibble.
by EchoEcho on 15 January 2012 - 16:01
Stephanie-
I wouldn't believe any of what the owner says until you talk to the vet. Like you said, none of your other dogs or puppies have ever had it and don't have symptoms. Most likely the vet told her the dog had coccidia (because that is what most vets do in their office and that is all you can tell on a wet exam. If you google Coccidia in dogs and go to the Coccidia Wikipedia and click on "Infection with these parasites is known as coccidiosis" it will take you directly to the place where at talks all about Coccidia in dogs is it states that "Genus Sarcocystis infect carnivores that ingest cysts from various intermediate hosts. It is possible for Sarcocystis to cause disease in dogs and cats."
Again, I don't find it any coincidence that this person is so repulsed by raw meat that she won't even have it in her house.
If you tell her that you are concerned and that your own vet hasn't heard of this and you would like to speak to her more "knowledgeable" vet I would be SHOCKED if she wouldn't give you their name and phone number if this parasite story is true.
I wouldn't believe any of what the owner says until you talk to the vet. Like you said, none of your other dogs or puppies have ever had it and don't have symptoms. Most likely the vet told her the dog had coccidia (because that is what most vets do in their office and that is all you can tell on a wet exam. If you google Coccidia in dogs and go to the Coccidia Wikipedia and click on "Infection with these parasites is known as coccidiosis" it will take you directly to the place where at talks all about Coccidia in dogs is it states that "Genus Sarcocystis infect carnivores that ingest cysts from various intermediate hosts. It is possible for Sarcocystis to cause disease in dogs and cats."
Again, I don't find it any coincidence that this person is so repulsed by raw meat that she won't even have it in her house.
If you tell her that you are concerned and that your own vet hasn't heard of this and you would like to speak to her more "knowledgeable" vet I would be SHOCKED if she wouldn't give you their name and phone number if this parasite story is true.
by Betta Wolf on 15 January 2012 - 16:01
Excellent reponses Echo, to both sunsilver & Von Ward!!
by Von Ward Kennels on 15 January 2012 - 20:01
I think I have found the truth now and it was what my gut was telling me.
The vet is on a Military base and she cannot remember the name. There are privacy issues that limits the vet from talking to me.
When she first told me about this, she said she had never fed the dog raw. Now today she told me her husband had given both the puppy and their smaller breed dog raw liver shortly after they bought the pup from me. The smaller breed dog was supposedly not affected. But now I don't think the puppy was either. I believe this parasite was a parasite story!
If ever another strict vegetarian wants a puppy from me, I will tell them this story and be very cautious. I stressed over this and all for nothing.
Sorry for the uproar. It's all over
Stephanie
The vet is on a Military base and she cannot remember the name. There are privacy issues that limits the vet from talking to me.
When she first told me about this, she said she had never fed the dog raw. Now today she told me her husband had given both the puppy and their smaller breed dog raw liver shortly after they bought the pup from me. The smaller breed dog was supposedly not affected. But now I don't think the puppy was either. I believe this parasite was a parasite story!
If ever another strict vegetarian wants a puppy from me, I will tell them this story and be very cautious. I stressed over this and all for nothing.
Sorry for the uproar. It's all over
Stephanie
by yellowrose of Texas on 15 January 2012 - 23:01
Info from any vet is private but your vet has the Prioritized honor of being a fellow doctor of veterinary medicine and I do not know of any vet to vet privacy of info.
All vets will discuss the SITUATION at hand to each other...they do not have to tell you the INFO> but your vet can speak to her vet...
I wouldn't worry about it. But we have vegetarians in the breed and I know one..She feeds her dogs the best...so it is the mentality of the person you got stuck with. Laugh it off...tomorrow brings more raw meat!!
I don't buy it.. I am 68 yrs old and have never had poisoning from anything I cook or eat in my home ....my dogs have eaten raw meat for 32 years both breeds I have been involved in...
A skunk or a possum all my dogs have killed stood a much bigger risk or that gopher that Rosie killed 20 times , than any raw meat I choose to buy and feed.
YR
All vets will discuss the SITUATION at hand to each other...they do not have to tell you the INFO> but your vet can speak to her vet...
I wouldn't worry about it. But we have vegetarians in the breed and I know one..She feeds her dogs the best...so it is the mentality of the person you got stuck with. Laugh it off...tomorrow brings more raw meat!!
I don't buy it.. I am 68 yrs old and have never had poisoning from anything I cook or eat in my home ....my dogs have eaten raw meat for 32 years both breeds I have been involved in...
A skunk or a possum all my dogs have killed stood a much bigger risk or that gopher that Rosie killed 20 times , than any raw meat I choose to buy and feed.
YR
by EchoEcho on 16 January 2012 - 01:01
Stephanie-
I am glad you posted on here and I am sure most people would agree there is no need to apologize. I always say that those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. Glad you got to the bottom of it and your mind is at ease. Anytime we think or feel the way we are feeding or treating our dogs is doing them harm it makes us panic (at least it does for me). At least you sought out the truth instead of changing the way you feed your dogs or putting your dogs through any unnecessary treatment.
I am glad you posted on here and I am sure most people would agree there is no need to apologize. I always say that those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. Glad you got to the bottom of it and your mind is at ease. Anytime we think or feel the way we are feeding or treating our dogs is doing them harm it makes us panic (at least it does for me). At least you sought out the truth instead of changing the way you feed your dogs or putting your dogs through any unnecessary treatment.
by Slamdunc on 16 January 2012 - 02:01
Echoecho,
Excellent posts!
Jim
Excellent posts!
Jim
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