2-3 linebreeding - Page 4

Hey Bob,
    Is Holly your dog? Nice pedigree and good looking too! Does Bob Kress have a website? I know he gets some nice imported females...............Richard

Bob Kress does have a new website and he does have some nice dogs and picked up a few more just recently.

Wow i just looked at Dustys Ped closer that is alot of tiekerhook dogs in the ped plus the 2-2 linebreeding, I dont see that very often.

Richram:

 Yes I own Holly I got her when she was a little less then a year old...I wish I had gotten her sooner It would of saved alot of work from previous 2 owners.

The science is clear: close breedings (like 2-3) bring recessives to the surface by doubling them up, so:

1) More disease comes up, sometimes seriously;
2) The good traits you presumably like in the line are more likely to come forward.

In theory, you might expect:

1) A few puppies who get hit hard by the double recessives;
2) A few puppies who get lucky and really carry forward the traits of the line.

In practice, you get:  Health risks in all pups, whether they carry the good line traits or nice.  If your goal is to "cleanse" the line of the bad stuff, you can keep up a practice of close linebreeding, put off breeding the dogs until they are old enough to show up the diseases, and only breed old males and middle aged females who remain clean for many years.  THEN you have the good without the bad, up to point.

But if you care about the risks you have intentionally imposed on the individual dogs and their families, you have a problem.

If you are the sort who just likes to bet, you might do it and hope to find a great pup who grows up healthy because the odds broke in your favor.

It's that simple.  The rest is folklore.

That said, some very smart folks would never do it, and some very smart folks do it.  I have to assume those who do understand what they are doing.

But the big question is why one would  BUY a pup from a 2-3.  You are not getting the benefits of cleansing or fixing a bloodline and your individual dog is facing additional risks in a breed with too many problems already.  Presumably, the buyer is getting a chance at a great dog with traits he or she likes in the line for a reduced price that reflects the additonal risks.  My casual estimate as an economist is that you should pay 5-10% less for a 2-3 than an outcross for the health risks alone, but that's just a guess, really.

 Thats a first, less money because it,s line bred?. That strikes me as humorous.

MVF
So you think i should have paid less money for the Pup Hektor i own and that he may have problems and issues later on, Where did you get all that from because a Pup is Line bred 2-3. Below is the line breeding of Pup Hektor So what do you suggest is the problems i may get.
Steve1

5-5-5  1989 WUSV Sieger Fado von Karthago
5-5                     V  Troll von der bosen Narchbarschaft
4-4                     V Yoschy von der Dollenwiese
5-5                     SG   Mona von der Dollenwiese
4-5                       G   Orry von Haus Antverpa Ch FCI 96, CH WUSV 96, Ch WUSV 92
4-5                     SG   Bella vom Kirchgraben
3-4                     SG   Querry von Haus Antverpa
3-4                     SG   Ruth van't Leefdaalhof
4-5                     SG   Pax van't Leefdaalhof
4-5                            Siggi vom Steingold
2-3  1999 WUSV SIEGER  SG  Tom van't Leefdaalhof

Can someone please post Bob Kress' new website or PM me with it? Thanks in advance! Richard

MVF, the first part of your post is sound and valid, but to the last part, I have to remind that you can only "double up" as you say, on genes that exist in the first place. So, if the dogs you're 2-3 on or whatever don't have any hideous health problems, no matter how you breed them, you're not going to bring anything to the surface because it isn't there. Linebreeding doesn't cause problems; it only brings problems to the surface that were already there, just expressed less frequently.

Now, no way would I buy a dog linebred on a dog w/DM or crippling HD or something like that, but in a "tried and true" line where you're pretty sure you know what's lurking in the background, I see absolutely no reason why a 2-3 dog should be any less healthy or someone should pay less for it. 

Jenni, things aren't always as simple as we think they are, either. It would seem that we have access to more genetic variation than was previously believed.

ScienceDaily (May 19, 2011) — A detailed comparison of DNA and RNA in human cells has uncovered a surprising number of cases where the corresponding sequences are not, as has long been assumed, identical. The RNA-DNA differences generate proteins that do not precisely match the genes that encode them.

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The finding, published May 19, 2011, in Science Express, suggests that unknown cellular processes are acting on RNA to generate a sequence that is not an exact replica of the DNA from which it is copied. Vivian Cheung, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator who led the study, says the RNA-DNA differences, which were found in the 27 individuals whose genetic sequences were analyzed, are a previously unrecognized source of genetic diversity that should be taken into account in future studies.