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by sillysally on 11 October 2010 - 15:10
Most of us try to correct a fault with our breedings such as a steep croup etc , but these faults do not even figure in these people's minds.
It's all about colour and they will put two dogs together just to get a colour regardless of what is behind them health and conformation wise.
This is not improving the breed , this is greed pure and simple !
by Ema on 11 October 2010 - 16:10
Just because the pedigree is linebred you assume it was done so to produce livers when in fact there are no livers on the bitches side at all and as already pointed out there is only 1 on the male line so hardly linebreeding for colour. I also happen to know that the owner of the bitch did extensive research and had her pedigree checked for any health problems prior to mating . If this bitch were black and tan nobody would question the linebreeding or the mating , it would all be quite acceptable.
I can't speak for the owner of the stud dog used but i do know that the bitches owner went to great lengths to research what was behind her bitch , they were not sold as 'rare' they were not sold for a princely sum either !
Colour does not affect the health of the dog , neither does it affect the dogs working ability. The pups produced were not washed out with diluted pigment , they are a very dark liver colour.
Its such a shame that just because she chose to breed from what is a very nicely constructed dog she is hung out to dry cause of the dogs colour.
by sillysally on 11 October 2010 - 18:10
If that was true why mate this bitch to another liver to produce these off colours ?
Mate her to a standard coloured good quality dog to produce quality not colours.
The breeder in question has by the look of it other dogs with VERY questionable pedigrees indeed so health is not paramount is it ?
These breeders are bringing in livers for colour,would she have paid for transportation and quarantine if this bitch had been a standard colour and not a liver ? I very much doubt it indeed.
by owl01 on 11 October 2010 - 20:10
I fail to see why you should concern yourself over something irrelevant to the subject of this thread unless you are claiming once again to be able to read this person's mind.
How rude to assume you 'know' the reason the bitch was imported.In truth you know nothing about it at all do you?
Wild accusations and fingerpointing are the reason this forum has the reputation it has,will this thread will go the same way as many others before it?
by Uber Land on 11 October 2010 - 23:10
The female is a solid black, out of a very richly pigment litter full of deep red sables and blk/reds. dad is from the netherlands, mom was a am/ger cross.
the male is an extreme bi-color, out of very well bred top champion/many gen health tested and excellent hip white lines(many close cousins and aunts/uncles are in Japan and Europe now) and a ger/am. female.
both dogs are not extreme in structure, they basically run all damn day without tiring, the female has natural obedience and heels beautifully like a tennesse walking horse. the male is not a year yet, but he has excellent conformation, and a very sound mind on both. infact, these are probably 2 of the best dogs I've ever owned. and I've owned many different lines, including V SCH3 import dogs.
by sillysally on 12 October 2010 - 08:10
it's quite obvious to all why this bitch was imported, within a few months upon arriving in this country she was put into whelp to another liver before health tests results were recieved .
by owl01 on 12 October 2010 - 10:10
Uber Land I hope you are ready for the torrent of abuse you will most likely recieve!
by Prager on 12 October 2010 - 14:10
Uber land
I have said:
JCCacroll said:
I've never seen problems with liver dog of any breed.
Even if this statement would be the truth i'd say to that
just because the crack in the dam does not leak yet does not mean that we should ignore it. Liver is dilution gene and loss of pigmentation is a first sign of degeneration(!!!!!!!!!!!!). Dogs at this stage have no problems per se they are hidden it genes and "brewing" . (Study Genotype and Phenotype)
If you want to introduce in the future more problems into GSD then go and breed dilution genes.
JC Carroll said:
I don't think the dalmation's a good example. It's kind of a freak, genetically
It is a great example because Dalmatians, this freak as you call it, are result of dilution gene which may not be same as gene for liver but liver is also dilution gene. Thus they are the same in that aspect. Why not to learn from that. First Dalmatians were not deaf also, I believe. Or otherwise people would not keep breeding them back then.
You are playing with fire here!
Uber land said:
but I do plan on it ( breeding off dogs with liver gene) in the future after health checks.Uber land I am sorry to beat up on you but this is really important to me.
What health check are you planning to do? Total genetic make up? That is still impossible these days. Just because the dog does not display any problems does not mean that they do not carry gene for it. There is a thing as Phenotype and Genotype. A phenotype is any observable characteristic or trait of an organism. Genotype is an organism's full hereditary information, even if not expressed.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 12 October 2010 - 14:10
Colour does not affect the health of the dog , neither does it affect the dogs working ability.
Color most definitely could be tied with other characteristics . NO GENE IS WORKING ON ONLY ONE TRAIT!!!!!!!!!!!
Since do not think that you have read my post above I repost what I haver said here before because it is so important:
Also it is major mistake to say that color will not change temperament. Genes usually do not change just one characteristic but they change 2 or more! Here is A GOOD example. Color often goes with temperament. For example pure white animals ( animals with white skin and not just hair) have more neurological problems. (Deafness,....) Melanin ( dark pigment ) is also found in midbrain of animals. It is thus believed that melanin has a protective function in the brain. For example Dalmatians and other white dogs are often deaf and so on. Some white horses or blue eyed horses are totally crazy. Now this is an extreme expression of the lack of pigmentation but there are others less pronounced problems ,.....but still they are problems. Remember dark is good, lite is bad. Mouth of the GSD should be black and black spots on tong are desirable, as are dark eyes, black toe nails, deep colors of fur. As I have said above blue and liver are dilution genes and as such they are diminishing pigmentation and that is a first sign of degeneration.
DO NOT BREED OR BUY FOR BREEDING BLUE AND LIVER!!!!!!!!!!!!THERE ARE ENOUGH PROBLEMS IN THE BREED ALREADY!!!!
This is scientific fact documented many times in scientific literature . If interested read this article it is all interesting but if you want to know just about color just use future to search for word "color" in your task bar:
http://www.grandin.com/references/genetics.html
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by jc.carroll on 12 October 2010 - 16:10
Liver is NOT a dilution gene!
It's not even on the same locus as dilution.
Spotting is NOT a dilution gene!
It's not even on the same locus as dilution.
As of Dec, 2008, here are the latest lists of alleles and their affects.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/alleles.html
Little's book is still widely used, it was published in 1957. New discoveries have been made since then.
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