Really confuse with Show line vs Work line - Page 4

What about American line GSD, does anybody uses them ?? -OR- they are complete waste ??

Max v Stephanitz said (freely quoted from my memory):
Breeding dog for sport will improve the breed at first, but within 3(!) generations it will lead to certain deterioration.
 This is the truth for any single purpose breeding.
Keep in mind that GSD is not a single purpose dog or an extreme dog. If bred properly, he is a picture in spirit and physique of quality  versatile working dog. Thus any deviation to breed strictly for purpose of  show or sport or breeding for any single extremes in size, color, drive, .... is a mistake.
GSD should be a all around dog which, if trained properly from puppy hood,  is capable to be put on any path and to do well on it  while being a family member. Police, sport, S&R, guide dog for blind, detection dog,...
Now there may be dog bred for specific extremes which will surpass a GSD in that narrow field. But none should be able to surpass the GSD in ability to perform well in most tasks which other dogs do.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

My best "working", VA-1 sired SL dog (Sch3 IP03)is my service (assistance) dog. I retiired on disability in 1994 and have suffered some recent potentially life-threatening medical issues. My guy helps me with slpeep annea and with mobility around the house and with weight-bearing andcardio-vascular activity around the neighborhood. He is a remarkable good will-- ambassadorfor the breed-- flawless temperament in any environment and working drives . He has family members used as customs and working police dogs. His breeder was several times on the WDA world team and valued  the working ability of the  first dog (grandsire to the present dog)I trained and titled in schutzhund enough to breed three VA-sired bitches to him.

Praeger is correct.  The objective of the breeder, beyond attainingthe breed standard, should be one of breeeding a balanced dog.  That means balanced in temperament, drives and of steady nerves and behavior that is manageable for the handler to put into action or to make stand down as needed. That is a very tough ideal.

Charlie and Prager are correct, IMO. Specialized breeding has been the downfall of the breed for the past 40 years. Sport breeding has also gone too far away from balanced dog that could be able to do all things like Prager writes. More drive than brains is just as detrimental as weak nerves from genetic backmassing on a few dogs. Neither represents the legacy of the breed in its rise to glory. I have constantly cited this but showline people want to paint me as anti-showline without "remembering" my critique of the sport mentality breeding. The breed was not meant to have litters that all the dogs in the litter can be shown or all the dogs in the litter have genetic grips for sport. Its not the history of the breed because the breed was made up of different types of herding dogs to be a great utility dog. Of course many expert breeders don't realize this, and many expert breeders want to breed "aspects" that they like as opposed to bringing balance into their breedings, whether the unbalance is drive, color, nerve, civilness, whatever. These people obsess with promoting their particular trait that is emphasized in their breeding program over and over again...until the balance of the dog is gone. And these are NOT BYB, but rather supposedly expert breeders with ribbons and trophies to prove their expertness in shows or trials that no longer provide a forum for breedworthiness. I believe in neither show or workinglines, I believe in Geram Shepherds that are great utility dogs for service to man to include passive service and aggressive service. If you are breeding dogs that don't have puppies in the litter that are capable of achieving both aspects, then you are losing balance. JMO

That is right Gustav. It used to be that a GSD litter would have some outstanding work dogs and some that would be show dogs, and if you were lucky, you might get both in a couple of the pups... You'd also get a couple that were "pet" quality and that would be fine by me as long as we got a coupel of ideal standard pups.  By specializing the lines, the odds of any litter havind such a distribution of characteristics is affected and you end up with dogs with too pronounced traits, a couple that are along what the breeder wanted and a couple of "shitter" dogs that don't meet criteria for the market the breeder intended.  IMPO, the difference between some professional breeders and BYB is the availability of resources.  Just because an operation is large and well capitalized it does not mean that it is going to do better than a small breeder that takes his/her time to find the crosses most likely to produce a dog that has balanced drives, proper social behavior and the temperament necesary to work in a clear-headed and deliberate manner wether it is herding, SAR or protection.

But that is too damn hard and breeders are in it to sell their litters (and make money), so they breed high prey pups that can be trained easily,  and are eminently safe for the helpers.  In reality, these little prey-drive monsters are next to useless as personal protectors, unless the prey drive is duly balanced by an equal defense drive.  Some of the classifieds here for pups and grown dogs would lead you to beleive that V and SG dogs literally are falling out of the sky... when in reality, they are few and far in between if you take into account the numbers of pups whelped every year.

Hi, it comes down to what you want to do with your dog, the energy level you desire, & the look you like best. Yes, the WL & SL dogs are now different in temperament, drives, & energy levels.
I've own both WL & SL in the past. I prefer the WL dogs for their drives, stable temperament, &  health. I also prefer the look of the WL dog. They might not confirm to the GSD standard, but I've never seen a dog used for the blind, service, police, military, or SAR needing to do a flying trot. I've volunteer with a seeing eye dog organization, they use former herding GSD WL to build their breeding program. Those dogs look & act like the typical WL GSD's.
I've worked in SAR for many years with my previous WL GSD, she never tired or broke down even if she was required to work all day long. I've seen many SL dog's try out for SAR team, but their dogs would become lame after training for hours, or lack drive / nerve for the work.
Yes, I think there are SL that can work. Are WL perfect? No, they are not. But it comes down to which you prefer the most, & what your willing to give up in return. Everyone will have a different opions because it's based on their on preference & life style on the lines. If you are more of a couch potato at home that is looking for a family watch dog, & maybe a weekend dog to train as a hobby then get SL dog. A WL dog will drive you crazy dropping balls on your head while you trying to watch tv for a never ending game of fetch. If your a jogger, so you figure you'll be able to knock your WL dog out with a run every day. Well, all it did for mine was get them in better shape to work harder & longer! LOL

Good luck either way, Carol

I have to agree with much of what CPHudson says in their recent post regarding temperament, drives and energy levels. The requirement for many show people is not a very high level. Many more showline dogs could perform better in working activities if their training improved. One of the most important aspects for any dog is the level of training skills by the dog’s handlers. For many show people their own skills are very low, why? Generally speaking their attitude to working a dog is poor, they either will not learn how to train a dog, or, they just do not have the time and inclination. Too many keep too many animals which in turn means less time for good quality exercise and time consuming training. These are things that are vital in our breed.

CPHudson makes the comment that they have never seen dogs working with the blind, Military. Service, Police or SAR needing to do a flying trot. As far as I can remember this fast gaiting at such a speed was introduced by Hermann Martin, as a spectacle, at the 1989 Sieger Show when Iso was made Sieger. That is all it is, a spectacle. The movement is spectacular, however, at the Sieger show very few animals changed places after this exercise. Prior to this the gaiting was always carried out at a more normal working pace and, in my opinion, is the correct way to judge the movement. The flying trot, particularly when on the lead covers up the faults of a soft back, short stepping dogs and unsoundness. It does not illustrate ground covering economy of movement, or, conservation of energy as required by a working dog.

Mackenzie

As Prager, Charlie, Gustav and others have said the GSD should be an all round dog that is capable of been trained for many types of work (depending on its individual abilities IMO).

I'm not entirely sure this is a tough ideal though. After all we can see that breeding dogs for many types of specializations has been remarkably successful so it can't be beyond the wit of man to produce such a balanced capable GSD.

However, what I think is tough about the ideal, and Mackenzie has touched on this, is that there is no well respected forum/show/trial where such a balanced dog's capabilities are judged against his peers. Until points win prizes it will most probably remain just that - an ideal.

AandA