14 Month Old GSD extremely dog aggressive - Page 4

Ok, I made my little joke, but in all seriousness, slapping an angry, truly aggressive dog has got to be one of the most dangerous pieces of "advice" I have ever heard.  A dog who is truly aggressive will quite probably try to kill you for that. This is classic advice from someone who has never had a truly aggressive, or even a very strong-temperamented dog. IMHO, no dog worth his salt takes abuse like that in stride or improves his behavior because of it. Talk about a great way to lose respect if you're lucky, or body parts if not.

im going to have to disagree with you. There is much useful knowledge that can be learned from the old methodologies. The underlying principles still remain the same. Khoeler, Colonel Konrad Most, and others. These men trained thousands of dogs and there methods trained millions. So  dont knock old books. Many of the efficient methods today still follow the precedings and have built onto them.


I will agree to disagree on the hands. I agree mostly with you statement and i would never ever counsel someone on a forum to strike there dog. I am against striking a dog in 99.99% of circumstances.there a far better ways of proving leadership in the absence of physcial or personal corrections. Leaders dont go around beating the troops. The train and lead them.

However I house the worst of the worst of abuse cases, dominant knuckleheads, and all types who have never had any form of leadership. When everyone else wants to put the dog down i end up getting a call. I have had to resort to a stout pop under then chin or a takedown as a last ditch effort for my personal safety on a couple hard knuckleheads. So never say never.

Ok Yoshy,
We disagree.  Because thousands of dogs were trained with methods that hadn't evolved to todays training methods doesn't make it good today.  Yes, many dogs were trained that way and many dogs ruined.  All of the methods are not bad and some are still in use today.  I have the books, I have read the books and employed some of the methods.  I have a very large library of dog training books and am always searching for new ideas and better ways to train. 

Don't mistake the fact that I think training has evolved a great deal over the past ten years or so to mean I am soft.  I can assure you that my dogs are trained fairly and consistently with very good results.  I have never and will never strike my dogs with my hands, to go further I rarely ever raise my voice with my dogs.  I feel yelling at a dog shows that you are out of control to the dog.  I feel that rage, yelling or hitting a dog is very counterproductive and may increase aggression and direct it back to the handler.  Everyday I work with hard high energy dogs that we put into an aggressive state doing apprehension work.  I do not even like other handlers yelling at their dogs while training or on the street.  The most my dog gets from me is a very deep breath, that shows I am unhappy with his current behavior.  This is combined with a correction that will immediately stop the undesired behavior.  The correction is absolute and the punishment must fit the crime.  If I correct my dog he never thinks I am furious with him or in a rage, my behavior is very controlled and I'm in charge.  That is the picture I want to send to my dog.  If you are consistent and know how to properly correct a dog for unwanted behavior it is rarely necessary to loose your cool and yell or hit a dog.  I try not to make my corrections personal, the corrections are clearly about the bad behavior and not how angry or upset I may be because of it. 

I agree that slapping a rescue dog under the chin might work for a weaker dog, I rarely deal with weak dogs  so it wouldn't work for me.  I can assure if you wound up with my dog as a rescue and even gave my dog a leash correction, not to mention slapping him under the chin it wouldn't work.  He would be on you with out any hesitation or warning, no growling just serious aggression and biting.  You may win the fight but not without a hospital visit.   

Again, I'm not saying that Koehler's methods didn't work.  IMO serious trainers may still use some of his techniques but they have even better techniques these days giving far better results.  The days of "yank and crank" are hopefully almost over. 

i also disagree that prong collars will make a dog hand shy.  Hand shy to me is a dog becoming nervous when approached by a hand or about to be petted.  Sure dogs can see the telegraphed motion of someone not fluent in leash correction and react to that.  But the correction is associated withe the combination of the leash and tugging not necessarily the hand by itself.  It is all of those factors together. 

JMO FWIW,

Jim

There has been some great advise on this topic. I would contact the people that Yochy gave you and get some help with this issue.  Jim also has some very good advise.

I would definantly NOT use the advice that sitasmom gave. That is the worst thing to do. It is also a good way to get your face bitten. I would never tell anyone that has an aggressive dog to stick their face down in the dogs face and stare the dog in the eye. There would be a good chance to have the dog bite you right in the face.

ok thats your opinion. and your intitled to it.

training will always be a debate.

but dont make the assumption because a dog is a rescue its weak though.

i also dont think your a weak handler. As you describe your dog. think of him unchecked with no direction to the point he looses all self control. Think of some worse. Rehab them. What is the likely hood that dog is going to try you at some point?
even though dogs respect leadership and clarity and there are many ways to obtain both there are still a percentage of dogs those techniques will not work on. Yes i agree aggression met with force in a hard dog almost always will lead to problems. But there will be day if you foster nothing but problem children when a dog will try you with the intent to hurt you.
In that small percentage of dogs there comes a time when they have to realize they are the top of the todem pole.
do i think the guy/gal should resort to physical force in this case. no. said nothing of the sort in my posts above.
However when you rehab dogs there will be a day when its you or them. most would say they should be put down at that point. I disagree for the ones that can be given direction and sustain a life in public.


I also agree that bad advice was given as what the lady described could easily cause issues. so dont think im agreeing with her.

Yoshy, you're talking about an experienced person resorting to extreme measures in a "last chance" situation where everything else has been tried and failed. I fully believe in "desperate times call for desperate measures" and that, yes, strong physical corrections have their place in these cases. BUT- that's a bit different than telling someone w/out a LOT of experience to hit their aggressive dog in the face. I know you don't agree with that; I'm just saying that I think you and Jim were talking about slightly different situations, if I read both of you right. But I'm a dummy, so maybe I got it all screwed up.

Jenni,
 
nice to hear from ya.

I dont portray my opinions very well on paper sometimes. You are absolutely 100% correct.

Thanks for the elligant words too relay the point i was trying to make.

So i guess that makes me the dummy for the day.

Training collars or muzzles aren't going to help one bit..I know you use it because you can't control him though. But think about it, if he were to be immune to it, then why doesn't he keep lunging? That is why it is called a "pinch" collar as well. It pinches them when strain and pressure is applied.

What I recommend is to get books, or read online about training methods. If you feel you can not take this on yourself, I would see a professianal immediately as this can turn into something even more aggressive!

Good luck!

Yoshy, we need a dunce cap we can pass around. LOL

yeppers.  We should created the "dummy" avatar to pass around haha.