something i find interesting - Page 4

Yeah, but you guys are talking about breeders. I'm not. I understand a breeder wanting to know what is going on with what they produce, but the person selling a dog they didn't produce. It's hippo-critical!

Pree-posture-ass!

First Right of Refusal:

Scenario 1 - I want to sell my dog so call the Breeder - Do you want the dog, Schh 2, KKl1, IPO 2, - Breeder hell yeah i will come pick him up tomorrow.

Scenario 2 - Do you want the dog,  No Schh training, Stubborn as hell, snappy, No drive, weak temperament, couch potato - Breeder -  nah thanks dont want him.

Now what gives you the right to have any say in who the owner sells to or even where the dog is.  You used your right of first refusal on the dog and owner.

If you say you will buy the dog back period clause in your contract no problem but First right of Refusal....come on!

One question I have to ask is, do all breeders with "first right of refusal" or other clause that stipulates the dog be returned to them, always purchase the dog back from the current owner, or do some expect you to give them back the dog you purchased?  I know with puppy guarantees, that usually the money is refunded, though shipping is the owner's responsibility.  What about when the dog is older, outside the contract period?

The reason I ask is that I suppose a person that paid for a dog, and could actually sell it, might not want to just give back a dog they bought when they could resell it and recoup some of the money.

Crys

Here is another thought !!   Just because some one had to sell the dog in the first place , Maybe luck has changed for them and they would like the chance to have that dog back .

Crys - Not all breeders are going to refund your money, especialy not me! I have learned the hard way about taking puppys back and finding out they where injured, sick , or abused in some way that made them not sell-able. If you even suggest your going to refund money it makes it too easy for a buyer to become Detached to the situation, if you put it in writing that they better be careful with there investment and that they will not be getting any of there money back they all the sudden get more responcible. ( been there done that)
I expect not only to be told that a puppy that I sold ( at any age) is about to be rehomed, its in my Guarantee. I will Guarantee any puppy for 8 years IF I know where it is, and I can talk to the new owners about nutrition and proper care.

Here is the thing, If you buy a dog and use it, you are getting something by using that dog and should never expect to "recoup" vet bills and training etc that you put into the dog in the first place. That is all part of dog ownership. And if some one has it stippultated that you cannot Sell that dog without there permission, then just Ask permission! How hard is that? Complain away if you want-- but they might want to buy the dog back for a reasonable price, or have a buyer , or just want to follow the dog. Did you ever think maybe they would like the dog to be burried on there property or maybe get a puppy from that dog before it dies or something..       These unwritten rules of animal ownership have been around for several generations, it should be no surprise to anyone that people care about the animals they sell.

Whisper Gray

Nawww I think that is wrong Kimmelot. All this about protecting gene pools etc. I understand that you may want to wait till a puppy is past 6 months to alter it, but that aside from that, if you want to do something with a dog, do it while you own it. Neuter him, title him, breed him or sell him, but after that... you have now ownership of the dog. If you loved this dog so much, and had such little trust in the person you are selling him to... KEEP the damn dog.


Breeders breed and want to keep their lines and this is understandable. If I was breeding I would GIVE the puppies that I want to use later on away to my close friends. Otherwise, you are selling the dog, point blank. If you are not willing to risk giving the dog to someone else then keep it, or don't produce the puppies. You The Breeder are being selfish because you want to produce this precious litter to keep one or two pups for you that you control totally, but because the buyer did not produce the dog you attempt to claim ownership of this genetic material. Stupid ass monsanto does the same thing when they sue farmers for saving seeds form crop that the farmer grew. Even though monsanto genetically engineered these seeds it is still wrong. Much less you(being any hypoctytical breeder) who bought two tittled dogs and bred them.

All that being said, I think it would be hard for me to sell a dog I have had for any extended period of time and I see why breeders are so worried about where puppies go, but in their need to protect these dogs they are robbing people of their rights to OWN their property. The whole first refusal thing is cool with me as long as the breeder is paying whatever price the new owner asks. You say that keeping a dog, and vetting it comes with owning a dog, but there is a huge difference between a puppy and an adult.


Yes you want to know where the dogs end up, but do not ruin dog ownership for someone else because you can't stand to let go of your pups. When you breed you take a chance, and to throw in a curve ball, you should be willing to keep those sh1tty pups you produce becsue those are the ones you are worried about any damn way.

Whisper, I was just asking that question for clarification.  When breeders sell adult dogs that are trained, even if it's only basic obedience, there is usually a bit higher price for the dog than what a puppy would have cost.  And if you can no longer keep the dog, and your options are to give it back to the breeder for free, or sell it, then that's where my curiosity comes in.

I'm not saying that a breeder should give the buyer back every penny they spent. I understand that training fees and vet bills are the responsibility of the owner, and the breeder does not owe them back to the owner.

But at the same time, I see the prices of dogs being jacked way up owing to training, vet bills (if only for vaccs, worming, hip x-ray, etc), and shows or trials, so you know that when the dog is placed up for sale, the seller wants to try and recoup some of the expended money.

I just wondered about whether it's standard procedure to buy the dog back, or just to take it.  That's all.  I'm not even slightly interested in starting any trouble at all. 

Crys

 Nitro, you're thinking is kind of weird. The "shitty" pups are the ones we're worried about "any damn way?" You sound kind of angry. I don't see it that way at all. Personally, if I produced it, I will take it back. Even if I didn't, but I sold it, I will take it back. I won't sell a "shitty" dog. If it's that "shitty" I'll put it down, or yeah, keep it if I have a soft spot for the "shitty" creature;-)

Crys, I have a buyback clause. I don't say too specifically what it is in my contract (because obviously a fair price is going to be drastically different for some dogs than others) but it's there. I'm in this situation as we speak. I'm buying a pup back from my first litter for what the owner paid for her, though some things happened (like an oops litter) that breached my contract. 

I look at it like this: Do I care about the dog whether or not I think the person is an idiot and I made a mistake selling them the dog (and I don't mean the guy in the case above; he's a very nice guy)? Of course I do. Bottom line, if they're in the wrong place, it's ultimately my fault. Not to say I could've prevented it or known, but it is still my mistake, and for the sake of the dog, I'll fix it by taking them back. So it costs me money- so what? And even if they've somehow damaged the dog and it's not worth much, I'd still pay to get it back instead of telling them I don't want it; it's only fair to the dog I put in their care through my poor judgement. 

I don't think someone who honors my contract should be out their investment in the dog (I don't mean repossessing a horribly neglected or abused dog) because of circumstances beyond their control. If they need to part with the dog, and they could easily sell it, why should they not get the money back when they were honest and contacted me first, like they promised to do? So, if at all possible, I pay them what they have in the dog initially, or a fair price we agree upon. It might happen some day that I don't have the money. If they agree, I'll take the dog and sell it and return their money upon sale if they need to get rid of the dog immediately. 

Now, if someone tells me that they have to part w/their dog and have a great home lined up w/a friend, etc. then I would be likely to say that's fine, thanks for telling me. I would like contact info to check up on them once in a while, however. 

I just think a refund is a really easy way to try to ensure that the dog doesn't end up in any worse situation than they were in before. 

Thanks Jen,

I think I was a little more clear in my second post than in my first!:-)

I shouldn't have stuck my nose in on this one...None of my business what breeders choose to do.  But I was curious, I admit that.

Crys