Selecting a working puppy - Page 4

Deanna and Don .. i replied twice to your posts but twice emergencies came up so my web site timed out. I replied specifically in regards to what i looked for , how and why .. not like those foolish cookbook  1-5 tests . so forgive me i didn't brush you folks off- another time let's pick up on this . AP

               AP...No problem,,,,I'll take a rain check...

Well I hope all is well. But when the dust settles, I hope you can show what you described. Good luck to you!

Don,
          You are right, but I think all Phil was saying is, that even with the best
shot at picking a good puppy genetics can have a mind of their own.
Glen was a custodian and I think money was a factor at the time. But Glen was a big
guy(big and tall) and he preformed very well with Buck.  At the time I notice Gary
and Glen were giants compared to alot of people who were at
the top end of the sport at that time. Gary went on to repeat his success
many times. But after Buck I did not hear much about Glen.

Just to keep in mind, that the puppy thought least likely to succeed in a large litter, occassionally turns out to be the most successful in the sport.  So very much depends on handler-dog match and method of training...

Well I'd be willing to bet that it happens far less than the #1 pick being the best in the long run.  Sure it happens.  For many reasons.  Training, environment, handler"s experience, maturity, etc, etc.
Who knows?  I've seen where the best pup in the litter got a shot the day before the buyer came out and the pup didn't show much.  Sure enough, that was the last pup left in the whole litter.

how long do most people come out and test/look at the pups for?  a couple hours?  That is why it is nice to have a great breeder that you trust.  He/she has spent the last few months evaluating, and youre going to do it in a couple hours.

Don ... i must agree with you !! many ,many times i have seen NOT the FIRST picked puppy with future owners with the same goals, the best after maturity . happens in show AND working lines ! A supposedly very knowledgable dog person came to me for a pup. I had four males. one was by itself  quite away from all the other pups !! the fellow stated " i don't know .. seems to be avoiding and keeping it's distance from all the other pups. I am not sure . ?? something wrong with him he asked ? ....  i said NO .. no no no ... this is the best pup !! he didn't take my word. .... so a friend came  by to look at the pup . told him what happened .. the situation ... was 90 degrees in the summer. HE WAS the dominant one and the best  .. exceptional structure , and very very strong. mentally and physically. i said to my friend .. the fellow could not read the dog... he was laid back i explained ..not because he was weak ..oh no !! just the opposite ,, it was hot , he wanted to be left alone .. the other pups .... didn't even think about challenging him , pestering him , invading his space .. he called the shots !! so one year later this dog is brought back to me  by the nurse who bought him . she wanted to do AKC obedience. he was independent too .. so when he was alone and 15 feet from me a took out a rag from my back pocket . two swiches  to my side with the tug .. by the time i saw him lift his head he was on me full bite and crashing into me . i asked .. did you play tug with this dog ?? she said what is that .. i mean tug of war .. she said oh no ... never never . !!! que sera sera !!!

Deanna .. in response to your question : i want to see the pup inside  the litter first ...i  will by pass the reasons and what i look for  right now. then .... i want to see how , what , why the pups does something before the ball is thrown and after i throw the ball. i look over anything and everything. for example .. i want to hold the pup toss the ball . SO .. does it fight like heck to leave my arms for the ball  .. or not ?? when it leaves does it run like lightening to the ball ? or not. .. now if he is runniong to the ball does he startle if i throw a neutral object & does he  recover and go to get the ball or forget it ?  ,does he  get sidetracked  barring the distance for a pup is not to long... if he loses sight of the thrown ball does he search for it with it's nose ?- intensively or just a bit then give up ? ...  and when he gets to the ball does he lay down and posses it ? does he bring it back to me , does he run off with the ball once he got it?  why .. each of these scenarios tells me about the pup and HOW I NEED TO TRAIN IT .also i use these observations in conjuction with all the other data i see about the pup from doing other things. for example a pup with all other factors considered who brings back the ball to hand is a shoe in for Sch [ again with other factors like good tress level and bite work potential etc.]. traing : at 10 weeks i create the desire for the dumbell . i put a puppy dumbell on my leash and let the pup chase it like crazy . i reward the desire for the dumbell . alter i teach the retrieve , which is already innate  with othewr objects . once taught all the lelements then i substitute the dumbell .---- a dog that runs off with a ball or chooses to keep it for himself .. that pup needs to be handled differently . i have to teach him that it is in his interest to bring it back , or that is how he gets what he needs by bring back !!... so now . What do i want to see the pup do with the ball . 1 . just show me who he is - i want to know and understand his essence     2. for Sch a nice retrieve  , the ball brought to me by the pup. .. that also tells me the pup is bent on and willing to work with you in synergy ... consider the obedience a shoe in with this pup too ! now if my intention is Pers. Protect [ again amidst other factors ] i want to see this pup rip the ball to shreds like it wants to kill it. -- So do get an idea from where mindset lies in testing some things about pups ... that is why i laugh at the term " i want to see the ball drive' most have no clue what they should be really looking at . the why , how , when and why  within contexts !!  AP

              Ap,,,Thanks for the insight and answering in nice detail...There has always been one thing that  has stuck with me since the day I brought my male home at 8 weeks old...We brought him home the first day, gave him a little ball to play with. To my surprise ,he tried to kill it...I never heard noises like that come out of a little puppy..lol...I was a bit surprised. .....

                         Deanna...: )