civil drive in dogs - Page 4

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by Sam Spade on 21 July 2010 - 20:07

Troublelinx, I tend to agree with you on most of this. We have always referred to working the dog without sleeves as civil agitation. BUT I have heard many refer to the dog and describe him as civil if he is the type that wants to bite the helper without anything. You know what I'm talking about. The helper can throw the sleeve to the left of the dog and he never focuses on it, only wants to bite the man. Then there is the dog that totally focuses on the sleeve even if the helper is on top of him. But I agree with you. It's not a drive or a "zone" Brock Landers

troublelinx

by troublelinx on 21 July 2010 - 20:07

Sam I totally agree with you.  I have myself described some dogs as being civil.  In the sense of a temperment trait.

Slamdunc

by Slamdunc on 21 July 2010 - 20:07

IMHO, civil is a statement about a dog's temperament.  It has to do with threshold levels and the dog's reaction.  A "civil" dog will bite a person "for real" without equipment.  But it is more than that.  A "civil" dog is a dog that reacts to not just a perceived threat, but a perceived challenge as well. 

A civil dog will take note of a stranger making eye contact with the dog.  This is often a challenge to some dogs and a civil dog will certainly be aware of this.  When I describe a dog as "civil" to me it means a dog that will bite someone seriously and needs little provocation to do this.  I am not talking about a "fear biter" or a "sharp/shy" dog.  To me "civil agitation" and a civil dog are too different things.  I can "civilly agitate" any dog and one of two things will happen, fight or flight /  avoidance.  Just because a dog has a high defense drive and fights in my mind does not make that dog "civil."  I like dogs with balanced drives and high in both prey and defense, however a dog that is very high in defense may not engage or bite a person with little provocation.  They often times have to be pushed to bite.  A "civil" dog does not have to be pushed hard to engage.

We must keep in mind that dogs have been domesticated now for thousands of years and it is unnatural for the vast majority of our dogs to bite a person.  Many of the people on this forum are under the misconception that their dog will seriously engage a person and actually protect them from a determined bad guy.  When I evaluate potential police dogs I am looking for amongst other things a "civil" dog.  When I test dogs I want to be assured that the dog has the desire to bite me "for real."  I do "civilly agitate" the dogs, but I can see the temperament and I want dogs that will react strongly with little agitation 

Part of the reason I do not like posting here is that some people will misunderstand what is written.  Just because a dog is "civil" does not mean it is an aggressive monster trying to bite people for little or no reason.  The ideal dog, IMO is a strong confident dog that can "turn on" very quickly.  And be "turned off" just as quickly.  The dog must be able to calm and confident in large crowds, around children, not necessarily friendly or approachable by strangers but calm, under control and reliable.   

In regards to prey and defense drives: a dog can be loaded in prey, even higher in prey than defense but still "civil"  Don't mistake a high prey drive dog as not having the ability to bite someone "for real"  as long as the dog has a lot of defense as well.  To me  "civil" is a part of the dog's temperament and I am talking about strong, confident dogs with excellent nerves and temperament.  I wouldn't describe a "weak" dog as "civil," there are other ways to describe those dogs.  

JMO FWIW,

Jim  

NoCurs

by NoCurs on 21 July 2010 - 21:07

Dirt Diggler and Jim, interesting posts,both of them. I enjoyed reading them both. Mainly Max, I wouldn't worry about your avatar; serious dog people don't get too worked up over avatars.

by Sam Spade on 21 July 2010 - 21:07

Jim that is pretty much what I meant. And you brought up a good point that was on my mind. Many Malinois come to mind. Overloaded with prey and just want to bite, whether there is a sleeve or not.

Slamdunc

by Slamdunc on 21 July 2010 - 21:07

One thing I have found though is a lack humor,
with some police and sheriffs. But I don't take it personal.

Funny, I have found the exact opposite to be true, just most people don't get the jokes.  No doubt the sense of humour is not shared by the average person.  I laugh every day at work, the constant flow of  hysterical material provided by stupid people is incredible. 

Max, perhaps they just don't find you that funny. 

Jim


troublelinx

by troublelinx on 21 July 2010 - 21:07

I myself have a great sense of humor.  As a matter of fact I was bragging to my wife just yesterday about what a great sense of humor I really do have.  Sad to say that I almost broke my arm patting myself on the back.  However the prank playing, middle school type of humor is not humorous to me.

Jim,

If you are writing the next dog book I am buying.

MAINLYMAX

by MAINLYMAX on 21 July 2010 - 21:07

Jim,
          Some don't, some do. ........But no  complaints about my dog training and theory,
a lot of head scratching.

There will be more material on civil drive coming out so you can hear this from other
people. But if we all try to just stay calm.  Jim you probably get critics here about the way
law enforcement trains. But listen to old Max I won't steer you wrong. You can be the
800th police officer I have talk to about dogs.

DDiggler,
                     I am really a 10 year old, in Mr Smith's third grade  class in Boise Idaho.

Slamdunc

by Slamdunc on 21 July 2010 - 21:07

Sam,
Mali's in my experience are different.  Eye contact is a huge thing with mali's.  We have some mali's that will come up to you and let you pet them, much like a cat.  The minute you make eye contact it's on like donkey kong.  The dog enjoys you petting them until a point where you have over stepped your bounds.  In my unit we find it funny to let one of our dogs loose in the office when the guys are in there.  One guy will always bring a dog in and let it run loose while we are in the office or at a training location.  Some dogs are very social and approachable and like to be petted and played with.  Others, like mine are kinda "civil" and don't want to be petted.  Because, we all have such good senses of humor we find it funny to let our dogs mess with the other guys.  It's only really funny to the handler who's dog is loose, but the reaction from the guys is priceless when one of the dogs climbs into their lap when they are sitting in a chair. 

One of the funniest things I have ever seen was when I had my dog in the office.  One guy played with the dog for about 20 minutes, getting to the point of petting my dog and playing tug of war.  The dog viewed this guy as a pitching machine and someone who would throw his toy to him.  The dog went and laid down by my desk as I was typing  a report and the other handler asked "what would happen if I touched his tail?"  I replied it wasn't a good idea, but he was welcome to find out and went back to typing my report.  The other handler quietly rolled his chair up behind the dog and brushed one hair on the dog's tail with his finger. The dog who was laying there, nicely chewing on a kong, immediately spit the kong out and got up and faced the other handler.  The dog let out a low rumbling growl and proceeded to march straight towards the other handler.  The dog was very serious and the other handler was quickly rolling backwards in his desk chair saying "Jim, get your dog, Jim Help!"   I looked up and the dog had climbed up onto the handler's chest who was trying to climb out of his chair backwards.  The dog got nose to nose, eye to eye with the handler and stared him down as he stood on top of him in the chair.  No barking, just  a low rumble letting the handler know he had pushed his luck a little to far.  I called the dog back to me and he came instantly.  I laughed  so hard my sides hurt. I would say he is a "civil" dog and requires little provocation to react.   We actually need our dogs to be comfortable around our guys and the SWAT team.  In the event something happened to me someone else has to be able to take my dog and handle him to some extent.  So our form of joking has a practical application.   This handler now knows how far he can push my dog and has a new respect for him.  He will still pet him and play with him, but he's a little more careful now

Jim.   

MAINLYMAX

by MAINLYMAX on 21 July 2010 - 22:07

Jim,
         Is your hand gun civil ? when you pull the trigger does it shoot anything thing that
is in front of it? Is it something you want some one to play with?

If not, why in the hell would some one mess with a properly trained dog? He is bred to
do what he does, has nothing at all to do with his civil drive, but everything to do with his breeding.
 
I have a 2 year old female dog that loves for me to throw a ball for her. Not just a ball but her ball.
She will also do a guard not just a retrieve on the ball. This is the way she is bred. But for me to bring
out civil drive,  she must lower her aggression and focus on a task without any distraction or nipping
at another person or another  dog. This how you build civil drive.

The only reason I am spending so much time on this subject is so many people still think that
if the dog is in your face out of control that is civil . When the opposite is true. When your dog is bred
to be serious and he has good training to identify and act with aggression. In a confident manner
regardless of his surroundings..................This is civil drive (the zone)





 


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