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by Slamdunc on 21 June 2010 - 23:06
So, why doesn't the Military or PD's use them? Why are they not used by our special forces? When I go to select dogs for my PD how come I never see Pit Bulls available?
We simply look for the best dog available, regardless of breed. we look for the right temperament, the right drives and the ability to do the job. Typically, the choices lately are between GSD's, Mali's and Dutch Shepherds.
Just curious,
Jim
We simply look for the best dog available, regardless of breed. we look for the right temperament, the right drives and the ability to do the job. Typically, the choices lately are between GSD's, Mali's and Dutch Shepherds.
Just curious,
Jim
by NoCurs on 21 June 2010 - 23:06
Thanks K9 Mom for the kind words. Actually, I'm a "she". Diane Jessup by name.
As to why you don't see a lot of pit bulls in the protection sports compared to the breeds bred for it is the same reason you don't see a lot of GSD in weight pull competitions, as catch dogs on hogs or in the dog pit.
A GSD would be a joke in a weight pull contest. Oh yeah, you'll see one here or there pulling a bit, but no one serious would DREAM of using one. As the above poster stated, apples and oranges. Where is the $$$ in a schH trained pit bull? THere isn't any. There is very little interest in "working" pit bulls due to years of media hype. I have a helluva time placing detection dogs even with agencies where the dogs are proving to work better than other breeds, simply because of public perception. THAT is why pit bulls are numerically very few and far between. Add to that the "average" schutzhund trainer (in my opinion after 35 years in the sport) would RUIN a pit bull in about 4 minutes. Jerk them around and they just sull up on you.
They are both fabulous breeds for very VERY different purposes and reasons.
I would agree with whomever said they are probably better for short periods of work as they do not control the energy and burn out quicker. I am thinking they may not work for Military because they seem to overheat due to their not controlling their energy and I don't see them working out well in the desert situation (nor would they be perfect in the Tundra because they get frost bite).
Just as an aside, I'm going to make an arguement on this, though I TOTALLY see what you are saying, and understand why you are saying it, as they do have that "go all out" attitude. But contrast that with the dog pit, where the "barn burner" does NOT live to reproduce except in rare cases where he can disable his opponent quickly. Dog fights "generally" last from 30 minutes to and hour and a half, of steady work with no breaks longer than 30 seconds, and these dogshave AMAZING stamina. Probably the best next to alaskan huskies. In conditioning these dogs for weight pull or fighting, it is not unusual for them to run on treadmills for hours at a time (treadmills THEY power, not electric ones). I'm unfamiliar with anyone who gives a shepherd this type of work on a regular basis. Or needs to, as nothing they are asked to do these days requires that kind of stamina.
BTW: it is not uncommon to see a pit bull "take the bottom" during a fight to catch his breath. Because they are not "afraid" while fighting, they can be calm enough to do something like this. They'll just lie under there and let the other dog wear itself out and then come to the top. Very different from most dogs who freak out if they get in the botttom position.
My dogs agree 100% with you about your statement about not doing well in cold climate h owever!!!
As to why you don't see a lot of pit bulls in the protection sports compared to the breeds bred for it is the same reason you don't see a lot of GSD in weight pull competitions, as catch dogs on hogs or in the dog pit.
A GSD would be a joke in a weight pull contest. Oh yeah, you'll see one here or there pulling a bit, but no one serious would DREAM of using one. As the above poster stated, apples and oranges. Where is the $$$ in a schH trained pit bull? THere isn't any. There is very little interest in "working" pit bulls due to years of media hype. I have a helluva time placing detection dogs even with agencies where the dogs are proving to work better than other breeds, simply because of public perception. THAT is why pit bulls are numerically very few and far between. Add to that the "average" schutzhund trainer (in my opinion after 35 years in the sport) would RUIN a pit bull in about 4 minutes. Jerk them around and they just sull up on you.
They are both fabulous breeds for very VERY different purposes and reasons.
I would agree with whomever said they are probably better for short periods of work as they do not control the energy and burn out quicker. I am thinking they may not work for Military because they seem to overheat due to their not controlling their energy and I don't see them working out well in the desert situation (nor would they be perfect in the Tundra because they get frost bite).
Just as an aside, I'm going to make an arguement on this, though I TOTALLY see what you are saying, and understand why you are saying it, as they do have that "go all out" attitude. But contrast that with the dog pit, where the "barn burner" does NOT live to reproduce except in rare cases where he can disable his opponent quickly. Dog fights "generally" last from 30 minutes to and hour and a half, of steady work with no breaks longer than 30 seconds, and these dogshave AMAZING stamina. Probably the best next to alaskan huskies. In conditioning these dogs for weight pull or fighting, it is not unusual for them to run on treadmills for hours at a time (treadmills THEY power, not electric ones). I'm unfamiliar with anyone who gives a shepherd this type of work on a regular basis. Or needs to, as nothing they are asked to do these days requires that kind of stamina.
BTW: it is not uncommon to see a pit bull "take the bottom" during a fight to catch his breath. Because they are not "afraid" while fighting, they can be calm enough to do something like this. They'll just lie under there and let the other dog wear itself out and then come to the top. Very different from most dogs who freak out if they get in the botttom position.
My dogs agree 100% with you about your statement about not doing well in cold climate h owever!!!
by NoCurs on 21 June 2010 - 23:06
Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, when I am speaking of a "real" American pit bull, I'm talking about a dog like this, my beloved, late Boldog Erin Fay, IWPA WDS. Shown here NOT being agile while jumping up to hang from a rope! ; )
NOT talking about the show and pet bred stuff that are not "medium": as the standard calls for. These animals could neither bait, fight nor do useful work.
by TessJ10 on 22 June 2010 - 00:06
"Do i think they should be used for partol work? definalty no"
There you have it, folks. From someone who has owned hundreds of pit bulls over 30 years.
"I have 3 gsd that are training for PSA so that is my main focus. Too me compairing gsd to the apbt is like compairing apples to oranges. it makes no sence as they were bred for totally different things."
You are right.
There you have it, folks. From someone who has owned hundreds of pit bulls over 30 years.
"I have 3 gsd that are training for PSA so that is my main focus. Too me compairing gsd to the apbt is like compairing apples to oranges. it makes no sence as they were bred for totally different things."
You are right.
by VomMarischal on 22 June 2010 - 00:06
Diane, I didn't know that was you! Remember having dinner at Cheesecake Factory with Dawn and me?
--Jackie
--Jackie
by yankee girl on 22 June 2010 - 02:06
So, why doesn't the Military or PD's use them? Why are they not used by our special forces?
not everyone has the ability / knowledge to train apbt's. gsd, dutchies and mals are easier to train IMO. apbts are much softer with people so many times the traditional ways of training for sport just wont work with them. also, they can be dog aggressive and i imagine thats a liablity that most dont care to deal with.
diane, although we have never met, i am the one who did lou's birthday book many yrs ago. also 3 of my dogs are in the book you co-authered with him.
I'm unfamiliar with anyone who gives a shepherd this type of work on a regular basis.
how true that is. i have rarely seen a herder that is truely conditioned. not the way a sled dog or a pit for the box/show or weight pull is. i work my adult gsd like i did my pits when i was showing & pulling them. i often get compliments on how well conditioned she is and how much stamina she has.
not everyone has the ability / knowledge to train apbt's. gsd, dutchies and mals are easier to train IMO. apbts are much softer with people so many times the traditional ways of training for sport just wont work with them. also, they can be dog aggressive and i imagine thats a liablity that most dont care to deal with.
diane, although we have never met, i am the one who did lou's birthday book many yrs ago. also 3 of my dogs are in the book you co-authered with him.
I'm unfamiliar with anyone who gives a shepherd this type of work on a regular basis.
how true that is. i have rarely seen a herder that is truely conditioned. not the way a sled dog or a pit for the box/show or weight pull is. i work my adult gsd like i did my pits when i was showing & pulling them. i often get compliments on how well conditioned she is and how much stamina she has.
by Bhaugh on 22 June 2010 - 02:06
GSDguy08,
Not to hike this thread but Im curious if huskies are independent thinkers like alot of mastiffs Ive worked with. Neos are extremely smart, even more so I think than shepherds, They are masters at summing up a situation quickly and acting accordingly whether their human is on board or not. They use the least amount of energy to get the job done. But with that, it obviously makes them harder to train and if you dont get how they think your kinda sunk. High turn over rate for the breed.
Slamdunc if you ever want to give a Neo a try, Ill get one for you. If you can get past their Neo nectar, they would be a formidable opponent to any bad guy who wanted to take them on.
Not to hike this thread but Im curious if huskies are independent thinkers like alot of mastiffs Ive worked with. Neos are extremely smart, even more so I think than shepherds, They are masters at summing up a situation quickly and acting accordingly whether their human is on board or not. They use the least amount of energy to get the job done. But with that, it obviously makes them harder to train and if you dont get how they think your kinda sunk. High turn over rate for the breed.
Slamdunc if you ever want to give a Neo a try, Ill get one for you. If you can get past their Neo nectar, they would be a formidable opponent to any bad guy who wanted to take them on.
by NoCurs on 22 June 2010 - 02:06
Hi Jackie!!! Gosh yes, I sure remember that! How is Dawn doing? And yourself? H ope all is well! Great to touch base with you again.
by VomMarischal on 22 June 2010 - 03:06
Diane, things are going well. Our 501c3 is almost complete, and that will make a world of difference. Don't forget to drop in next time you're transporting. Hey I will be in Eugene next month for a PSA trial. Are you close to there?
by Slamdunc on 22 June 2010 - 03:06
I guess the best answer is that most (Pit Bulls) are not cut out for Police or Military work as many of you APT'S experts have stated. Not a reflection on the breed, but not what the breed was meant to do. At least that is what I get from this thread.
As with any breed, a few Pits can do detection work, but most are not bred or raised to do regular Police or especially high end Military work. Police K9's such as mine need to be cross trained for patrol and detection work (either narcotics or explosives). Mine may not be the best single dog in one area, but he is better than average in all areas; tracking, obedience, building searches, narcotics and suspect apprehension and control. He is an agile GSD, 80 lbs and has the ability to take down a large suspect with ease. 80 lbs moving at over 30 mph will knock down most suspects. He also bites full and hard with crushing grips, perhaps not the exact pressure of a Pit but has to be close. Based on suspects hospital visits, I don't need to split hairs on jaw pressure, his is more than powerful enough to do the job. A high drive GSD that loves to track and do narcotics work and is very civil and will engage a person instantly. I will admit he is not your average GSD, but exactly what a working line GSD should be.
When I select dogs for Police work I'd look at a Pit and evaluate it the same as the other dogs I'm looking at. If it was superior to the other dogs I'd select it. Breed doesn't matter, the pedigree, color or breed doesn't work or bite; the dog does.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
As with any breed, a few Pits can do detection work, but most are not bred or raised to do regular Police or especially high end Military work. Police K9's such as mine need to be cross trained for patrol and detection work (either narcotics or explosives). Mine may not be the best single dog in one area, but he is better than average in all areas; tracking, obedience, building searches, narcotics and suspect apprehension and control. He is an agile GSD, 80 lbs and has the ability to take down a large suspect with ease. 80 lbs moving at over 30 mph will knock down most suspects. He also bites full and hard with crushing grips, perhaps not the exact pressure of a Pit but has to be close. Based on suspects hospital visits, I don't need to split hairs on jaw pressure, his is more than powerful enough to do the job. A high drive GSD that loves to track and do narcotics work and is very civil and will engage a person instantly. I will admit he is not your average GSD, but exactly what a working line GSD should be.
When I select dogs for Police work I'd look at a Pit and evaluate it the same as the other dogs I'm looking at. If it was superior to the other dogs I'd select it. Breed doesn't matter, the pedigree, color or breed doesn't work or bite; the dog does.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
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