Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft - educated opinions please - Page 4

Ibrahim, if she sells my puppies, you will be seeing FUR FLY! Or did I miss seeing Red Sable's puppies?

Edit: Duke, there is something about Troll/Yoschy lines that is different. Everybody I know with one of them comments on the dogs' intuitiveness. Of course, it helps if the dog is LINEBRED on those dogs rather than their just occurring once. It's like they are more than just dogs...whatever that means. Sigh. That was feeble but it's the best I can do right now.

i don't know what kind of experience duke has had in breeding dogs or other animals, but i will say this:  there are definately positions in the pedigree which may be more/less inheritable.  fero, troll, yoschy etc have been proven over and over to be very influencial in the sire's sire line.  i have found 5,5 breedings to be very inheritable as well.  while it may not seem "close up" to some, it is more a matter of intensity.  it also makes a difference from male to female which positions are most inheritable and will flip-flop accordingly by male and female in subsequent generations.  my current favorite female is 5,3-3 link muikenshof.  you are talking carbon copy, here.  ;)
yes, mink can pass on handler hardness, especially thru crok sons.  this has been discussed at great length.  but if you want to reintroduce some fight drive and full grips, mink will fill the bill.  it's not a matter of "this is good" or "this is not good", it is a matter of correct evaluation and effective blending.  partners that compliment and compensate.
pjp

This is the best/informative thread, we have had here in some time. Ziegenfarm, I love the info you put in your posts about the individual dogs and blending of lines. Good stuff.

Someone PM'd me about my dogs ped and said his strength comes from Verwin. Verwin is Orry's sire and Orry is a favorite of mine but I have a hard time pinpointing just one dog in my boys ped, that is the star. I'd probably have an easier time pointing out the weakest dog or the one with the least to offer.

Troll Milinda
Natz
Fado
Orry
Verwin
Steffi

Aly
Troll Nach
Fero
Kid

Eros
Tom
Querry
Aline Mo
Yoschy
Grief

Zohra / sister to Zidane v h Sevens
Erika Mat-Roz
Ema Nemo
Arec Bunsenkocher

It reads like a who's who of the BSP/WUSV a true orgy of GSD awesomeness.

I have had and know friends who love Mink and Fero lines . Dogs from this crossing  usually have good fight drive and civil. Handler aggression is something that most people let develop by allowing dogs to get away with it. I really don't mind a dog that is civil in fact I look for real dogs. The Mink, fero dogs I have had the pleasure of knowing where very good in the bite work. Therre are way too many prey only monsters out there now/.

As with my advice on any prospective breeding dog, judge the dog first; the pedigree second.

Once you've tested the dog, and determined the dog is right for your breeding program, then look at the pedigree
MY EXPERIENCE has been that I personally love the Fero-Troll-Timmy-Yoschy-Nick lines. Great civil, social aggression, hardness, FIGHT drive, and overall drive.

I like to mix the strong West German line males with stable nerved Czech females. The West German females are put back into the males. The mixture seems to balance power/drive overall drive with "thinkability and trainability". I have said this for years and people are starting to listen.

I love several lines, such as the famous Asko vd Lutter, but I won't touch on them here. I love them because of hands on experience over different breedings and it's a whole other discussion.

Every great dog produced mediocre dogs, and these lines don't guarantee success.
As with any breeding, have a knowledgeable and successful breeder/trainer look at the dogs, if you yourself don't know. But, overall, I love them more than any other.

                                                Nate
                                                www.sportwaffenk9.com

as i said, "there are folks who have bred and trained mink/fero dogs very successfully."  i think this may have more to do with training styles than we tend to discuss.  folks who like civil dogs may in fact be choosing dogs that fit their training styles more than they even realize.  some people use more compulsion in training than others.  natually, they will choose dogs that can deal with it and respond accordingly --- without shutting down.  people who tend to train more with treats and praise will be miserable failures with dogs that require strong correction and compulsion.  i cannot train (or even live with) the sort of dog that bernhard flinks trains.  i am not ronny van den berghe.  i could never have taken tom or eros to the world's.  some folks are very agile and athletic.  if they can move quickly and with animation, they will probably do well with high prey dogs.  those of us who like to train with food and move like slugs will probably not produce high point dogs.  it is all very individual and i do believe we tend to choose dogs that adapt to our style.  often those dogs will be found within certain bloodlines.  also, i think we tend to choose dogs according to what is important to us.  quite honestly, bite work is overemphasized by some.  these folks are so enthralled with it that they tend to forget that obedience is a must in all 3 phases of schh.  a 97 in protection cannot make up for an 11 in tracking.
i did not mean to dis the mink/fero dogs, but pointed out that they were not my personal choice.  after some time and many mistakes, i have some idea of what i like and can live with......it is not what one would choose for high level competitions.  :)
pjp

As the word Mink was used only, i thought maybe it was Muikenshof but not so, However he passes on hardness to his off spring in abundance, Nothing Phases them,
However if anyone buys a 8 week old Puppy it is up to a point a hit and miss job regards to how it will turn out to maturity, but once you have picked the bloodlines you want and got the Pup home then its up to how the Pup is bought up and handled by the owner of how it will turn out, some are better than others at doing it, that is the main factor the Human element how good are we at doing what we set out to do to get the full potential from the Pup
ziegenfarm
There are not so many Ronny van den Berghs around anywhere, We had a laugh over him only last weekend after he won the 2nd Selectional Trial for the WUSV with Como score of 100 - 97 -- 93. = 290
After he had put Como away Ronny came over where i was sitting shook my hand and we talked a bit, However he was sitting in my brothers seat and he came back and stood behind us, one Guy said to my brother tell Ronny to get out of your seat
He replied ' You do not tell the KING to get off his THRONE, everyone started laughing, it makes for a good day out
Steve1

ziegenfarm ,
my breedingexperience is not to be worried about , in 25 years I built a bloodline trough in/linebreeding,some outcrossing  and managed to loose most genetic diseases in that breed ,and stay close to the standard of the breed, and have my success worldwide.
 my breeding of german shepherds is relatively short , but following the same paths as I did before, I think ill get there too

now about certain positions on the pedigree , is a story I heard before , but its a BS story for me
from every litter that is outcrossed like most you can take several pups and will see they all have a different genetic buildup

from there, every choice of partner , and what pup to keep , and lets not forget whit wom the pup ends up  , will matter ,
 
not who is on position so and so , or on the fifth generation twice

if you want to work on, lets say troll , you start with a daughter or granddaughter of troll who carries the traits of troll you want to see in your offspring
now look for a male who is strong at the weaker points of your bitch , and minimal very good at the strong points of your bitch , and look for this male in the TROLL offspring , and as important , the other side of the pedigree should not be the same as the other side of the females pedigree

now select that pup that carries the qualities of the dog your linebreeding on , and most important look for the one that carries the traits of the male you used , that you wanted to improve your female on

and so on

this is linebreeding in practice , where the linebreeding on paper on  an accedental4-5  or 5-5 wont get you anywhere

not to say that this 5-5  bred dog cant be a fantastic dog , but than he will be fantastic because of the choices his breeder made and the time and effort of the handler put in , or pure luck , but not  because his 5-5 linebreeding

just how I look at it

Duke 1965
Correct
Every Pup of every Litter will have a different genetic makeup, It has to have , It is only by a certain amount of Inbreeding Line Breeding can anyone fix the Qualities a breeder is looking for, saying that you will enhance the bad qualities but that is not a bad thing , for you can then go about eliminating those bad Qualities, Through the next Generations By continuous out crossing you get nothing but more permutations than on the football pools or the lottery ticket
Steve1

steve1 , you are in homingpigeons also , am I right?
I had a book about breeding pigeons long time ago from a hungarian professor , very educational , but I lost it
do you know where to find another copy?