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by 4pack on 12 April 2010 - 19:04
SAR, Herding and Police dogs need high drive too, not just Sch.
by TessJ10 on 12 April 2010 - 20:04
I didn't say one was better. Myself, I have both. What I do think, and I'll say again, is kudos to those working towards the true GSD, a breed-typey dog who can work, and to those who look long term in their breeding program, looking beyond 1 generation.
by steve1 on 12 April 2010 - 21:04
Tessj10
So what you are saying then that a Show line would improve the performance of a True Working Line dog who Scores well in his work, well I have just come home from a Show Training Club with my working line Pup Izzy, She was running around the ring with me in tow, Among 14 other Dogs all Show lines, Prior to the Show side They did some Obed, well a few of the Show lines did Okay they were passable going through the motions of a down and a sit and what else they did, But they did it without any sense of liking it at all, They went to heel in slow motion in there own time
Now i do not decry these Dogs But Horses for Courses, They in turn showed Young Izzy up in the good looking stakes and the way they performed in the ring,
But she being so young herself showed them up on the Obed front and she is not yet 11 months old, but did the job with more vigour and love of doing it with more purpose than any of the show lines and i am talking about 2 and 3 year old Show line dogs,
afterwards the Show lines did a bit of Protection work, and One or too were passable But i tell you this, I myself can bite harder and with more enthusiasm than most of those Dogs
So No' Crossing them with a Working line is not my idea of improvement to ether type of Dog and Yes, you can get some Crappy working Lines just as you can get some Crappy Show lines that is in all things living
But by crossing the best of the Working line to the best of the Showline will not make a better Dog for the Show side or the work side as i have said above,
Me i am not looking for beauty as beholds in the eye
If i own a Dog who wins the Belgian National or better still the WUSV 1st Place they that Dog is then the most beautiful looking Dog in the world to me
Steve1
So what you are saying then that a Show line would improve the performance of a True Working Line dog who Scores well in his work, well I have just come home from a Show Training Club with my working line Pup Izzy, She was running around the ring with me in tow, Among 14 other Dogs all Show lines, Prior to the Show side They did some Obed, well a few of the Show lines did Okay they were passable going through the motions of a down and a sit and what else they did, But they did it without any sense of liking it at all, They went to heel in slow motion in there own time
Now i do not decry these Dogs But Horses for Courses, They in turn showed Young Izzy up in the good looking stakes and the way they performed in the ring,
But she being so young herself showed them up on the Obed front and she is not yet 11 months old, but did the job with more vigour and love of doing it with more purpose than any of the show lines and i am talking about 2 and 3 year old Show line dogs,
afterwards the Show lines did a bit of Protection work, and One or too were passable But i tell you this, I myself can bite harder and with more enthusiasm than most of those Dogs
So No' Crossing them with a Working line is not my idea of improvement to ether type of Dog and Yes, you can get some Crappy working Lines just as you can get some Crappy Show lines that is in all things living
But by crossing the best of the Working line to the best of the Showline will not make a better Dog for the Show side or the work side as i have said above,
Me i am not looking for beauty as beholds in the eye
If i own a Dog who wins the Belgian National or better still the WUSV 1st Place they that Dog is then the most beautiful looking Dog in the world to me
Steve1
by sueincc on 12 April 2010 - 22:04
Hi Tess;
Well, you must remember people have different ideas of exactly what a "true" GSD is supposed to look like and act like. I don't like to fling the term around because what is true to me is not true to everyone else. Personally, the dogs that win in the show ring aren't what I have in mind when I think of a "true" GSD. I still don't really understand why Wienerau had so much influence, to the point that although the standard hasn't changed, the type of dog that wins in the show ring sure has. So for me, the "true" GSD looks like a "v" rated working line dog, but to each their own.
The original poster asked why "so many here against crossing working lines with showlines? What could be the horrible outcome of such breedings?"
I am trying to point out that people aren't so much "against" as they either don't see a need for it or they don't have the ability to go through several generations to get to a type of dog that is what? To what end? How would this dog be better than a show line that can work or a "v" rated working line? Many of us already believe our type is "true".
Well, you must remember people have different ideas of exactly what a "true" GSD is supposed to look like and act like. I don't like to fling the term around because what is true to me is not true to everyone else. Personally, the dogs that win in the show ring aren't what I have in mind when I think of a "true" GSD. I still don't really understand why Wienerau had so much influence, to the point that although the standard hasn't changed, the type of dog that wins in the show ring sure has. So for me, the "true" GSD looks like a "v" rated working line dog, but to each their own.
The original poster asked why "so many here against crossing working lines with showlines? What could be the horrible outcome of such breedings?"
I am trying to point out that people aren't so much "against" as they either don't see a need for it or they don't have the ability to go through several generations to get to a type of dog that is what? To what end? How would this dog be better than a show line that can work or a "v" rated working line? Many of us already believe our type is "true".
by kitkat3478 on 13 April 2010 - 00:04
www.zwinger-wienerau.de/4.html
This is from the Wienerau website, this is the influence wienerau had on the German Shepherd
"Jeder macht seins" (Everyone makes their own)
He´d say, everbody has to make their own decissions and has to go their own way. His vision of breeding dogs was, to come as close to the standard as possible and combine that with a deep red-brown coloring (wich wasn´t established back then). Critics may say, that he created a new standard. This should be quite right if you think about that Wienerau dogs are decisively involved in the "black-brown" colour standard of today.
Asso von der Wienerau
To his opion his first two litters had been less spectacular. So he followed the advice
of his father that success in breeding depends on the mother. This hint and the
conviction that a dog has to be very beautiful (as close to the standard as possible)
should be the key for success for the next decades and basis of his breeding capabilities.
As a result of this he bought the female "Berta vom Lorscher Sand", which, as he
himself always said, had too much of all. Out of Berta came in her first Wienerau litter
Dixie von der Wienerau, which can be seen as the prototype of the Wienerau breeding.
And this was accompanied by success. Out of Dixie came the L-litter, Luno
(SG2, 1963 JKL-R), Lido (V1, 1964 GHKL-R), Landa (VA 1, 1965 GHKL-H) and
of course Liane. In this litter the deep mahagony-red coloring appeared for
the first time, which should be the tagging of the Wienerau-dogs later, and be
mocked by some as "chocolate dogs". The inbreeding of Dixie (Walter was in
favor of inbreeding) Dixie with Lido (as grandfather) led to Quanto in the
first line and in the second line (Via "L") by Liane to Canto. These two dogs
probably had more influence to the German Shepherds than any other dog back
in these days. For more than a decade you found both dogs in almost every
pedigree.
Lido von der Wienerau
Quanto von der Wienerau Walter himself saw this period as the most influential of his breed with the victories of his kennel group in 1965, 1966, 1967, Siegerin 1965 and VA 2 in both male and female 1971.
Nevertheless his longing desire and dream of making a Sieger first became reality 21 years later.
Looking at the the BSZS-show results back in 1971, Walter had reached the peak. Nobody had achieved these results earlier and a repetition seemed unimaginable. But his vision of the perfect German Shepherd still pushed him.
This is from the Wienerau website, this is the influence wienerau had on the German Shepherd
"Jeder macht seins" (Everyone makes their own)
He´d say, everbody has to make their own decissions and has to go their own way. His vision of breeding dogs was, to come as close to the standard as possible and combine that with a deep red-brown coloring (wich wasn´t established back then). Critics may say, that he created a new standard. This should be quite right if you think about that Wienerau dogs are decisively involved in the "black-brown" colour standard of today.
Asso von der Wienerau
To his opion his first two litters had been less spectacular. So he followed the advice
of his father that success in breeding depends on the mother. This hint and the
conviction that a dog has to be very beautiful (as close to the standard as possible)
should be the key for success for the next decades and basis of his breeding capabilities.
As a result of this he bought the female "Berta vom Lorscher Sand", which, as he
himself always said, had too much of all. Out of Berta came in her first Wienerau litter
Dixie von der Wienerau, which can be seen as the prototype of the Wienerau breeding.
And this was accompanied by success. Out of Dixie came the L-litter, Luno
(SG2, 1963 JKL-R), Lido (V1, 1964 GHKL-R), Landa (VA 1, 1965 GHKL-H) and
of course Liane. In this litter the deep mahagony-red coloring appeared for
the first time, which should be the tagging of the Wienerau-dogs later, and be
mocked by some as "chocolate dogs". The inbreeding of Dixie (Walter was in
favor of inbreeding) Dixie with Lido (as grandfather) led to Quanto in the
first line and in the second line (Via "L") by Liane to Canto. These two dogs
probably had more influence to the German Shepherds than any other dog back
in these days. For more than a decade you found both dogs in almost every
pedigree.
Lido von der Wienerau
Quanto von der Wienerau Walter himself saw this period as the most influential of his breed with the victories of his kennel group in 1965, 1966, 1967, Siegerin 1965 and VA 2 in both male and female 1971.
Nevertheless his longing desire and dream of making a Sieger first became reality 21 years later.
Looking at the the BSZS-show results back in 1971, Walter had reached the peak. Nobody had achieved these results earlier and a repetition seemed unimaginable. But his vision of the perfect German Shepherd still pushed him.
by Two Moons on 13 April 2010 - 05:04
Missy,
The point is diversity.
Show line dogs are not made of glass, working lines have their problems too.
Then there are the dogs who do not compete but still serve their purpose perfectly.
I don't care for tunnel vision, so much is left behind.
The individual is more important to me than the lines themselves.
There is more to the breed.
Moons.
The point is diversity.
Show line dogs are not made of glass, working lines have their problems too.
Then there are the dogs who do not compete but still serve their purpose perfectly.
I don't care for tunnel vision, so much is left behind.
The individual is more important to me than the lines themselves.
There is more to the breed.
Moons.
by TessJ10 on 13 April 2010 - 06:04
"So what you are saying then that a Show line would improve the performance of a True Working Line dog who"
steve, don't make things up. Where did I say that?
Blanket statements like yours don't work in dog breeding. There are plenty of awful-working SL out there, but the reality is that there are also plenty of awful-working WL dogs out there, too. The tunnel vision of people who don't see this is amazing. So why not breed a conformationally correct dog who can work? There are a number of SL dogs out there who work really well and should be bred, just as there are WL dogs who not only work well but are conformationally correct. Why not breed them?
Two Moons rightly says:
"Show line dogs are not made of glass, working lines have their problems too....I don't care for tunnel vision, so much is left behind."
steve, don't make things up. Where did I say that?
Blanket statements like yours don't work in dog breeding. There are plenty of awful-working SL out there, but the reality is that there are also plenty of awful-working WL dogs out there, too. The tunnel vision of people who don't see this is amazing. So why not breed a conformationally correct dog who can work? There are a number of SL dogs out there who work really well and should be bred, just as there are WL dogs who not only work well but are conformationally correct. Why not breed them?
Two Moons rightly says:
"Show line dogs are not made of glass, working lines have their problems too....I don't care for tunnel vision, so much is left behind."
by steve1 on 13 April 2010 - 07:04
TessJ10
What you said to me was
(So you are saying that all working line dogs are better at ScH than all Show line Dogs)
Tess
i did not say that so i am replying to what you have said
However No matter what you or anyone else says It is horses for courses as far as i am concerned
You would never Cross a Thoroughbred Sprint 5 furlong Horse to a Derby Winner which runs at one and a half miles in hope that you would get a faster horse or perhaps another with more stamina it does not happen that is fact and having been around race horses, Steeple chasers and ridden out work for the best of them, and rubbed shoulders with the likes of Lester Piggott and Sir Gordon Richards i do know what i am talking about there
By crossing a TOP Show line with a TOP working line dog will in my opinion do both sides a lot of Harm Now read again i specifically referred to ScH because i know well that some will pick up on every word and try and make a different case for it and you are doing it now
I know full well there is more than Schutzund with any working type Dog of various Breeds and I know full well about herding in the sense of Sheep Herding Competitions i should do having won around 20 or so such competitions years ago when i reared Two Border Collies up from 8 weeks old and trained them myself of a Friends Farm using his Sheep
And also helped in part to train two Labs for the Blind Folk so i know full well about working Dogs for sure,
You mention in one thread and you say
Is the German Shepherd Dog supposed to always be in a high state of Drive
What makes you think that any working Line is always in a high state of drive you have your wires crossed there,
No Matter what job the WL dog is doing, it is as Calm and Sound as the next Dog It is only when asked to do the job of work that its Character changes otherwise it is no different than any other dog of any breed
At home mine are and always have been as calm and as neutral as any other breed of Dog i have ever owned That is my opinion on it and that is not going to Change, I expect folk as like mind as yourself will do it and i guess it has already been done crossing the two, But i have never heard of any Top Breeders of WL Shepherds ever do it in Belgium, however i will ask a few when i meet up with them to see what there opinion of it is
I have outlined what would happen with my Pup all i can say is this and it may well hurt a lot of feelings in some but what the heck thats too bad
If Breeders of G.S in General throughout the world carried out the criteria that i have set out above for my Pup before i would ever think of breeding from her then i think on the whole a better type of German Shepherd Dog would evolve, If not on the Sch side of it then some form of work the Dog could be graded in to test it out, Plus the other most important aspects of Joints etc and of a breed survey if possible
Too much Rubbish is bred from today and that is fact of the working line and Show line, As for better conformation in the S.L if that is so why has the shape evolved so much over the generations not to the betterment of the Dog for it it was why is there so much controversy in the German Shepherd Dog world regards that fact at the present time No Stupid Breding by People who breed Willy nilly is the cause of the problems today with the breed in general, But i could talk until the Cows come home it is like talking to thin air so it is time wasted
TessJ10 You have your opinion, i have mine i will not convince you otherwise and i have not set out to do so i am simply giving my opinions to the poster kit kat and you certainly will not change my thoughts on it, So we will have to call it a draw and go with out own thoughts on the subject
Steve1
What you said to me was
(So you are saying that all working line dogs are better at ScH than all Show line Dogs)
Tess
i did not say that so i am replying to what you have said
However No matter what you or anyone else says It is horses for courses as far as i am concerned
You would never Cross a Thoroughbred Sprint 5 furlong Horse to a Derby Winner which runs at one and a half miles in hope that you would get a faster horse or perhaps another with more stamina it does not happen that is fact and having been around race horses, Steeple chasers and ridden out work for the best of them, and rubbed shoulders with the likes of Lester Piggott and Sir Gordon Richards i do know what i am talking about there
By crossing a TOP Show line with a TOP working line dog will in my opinion do both sides a lot of Harm Now read again i specifically referred to ScH because i know well that some will pick up on every word and try and make a different case for it and you are doing it now
I know full well there is more than Schutzund with any working type Dog of various Breeds and I know full well about herding in the sense of Sheep Herding Competitions i should do having won around 20 or so such competitions years ago when i reared Two Border Collies up from 8 weeks old and trained them myself of a Friends Farm using his Sheep
And also helped in part to train two Labs for the Blind Folk so i know full well about working Dogs for sure,
You mention in one thread and you say
Is the German Shepherd Dog supposed to always be in a high state of Drive
What makes you think that any working Line is always in a high state of drive you have your wires crossed there,
No Matter what job the WL dog is doing, it is as Calm and Sound as the next Dog It is only when asked to do the job of work that its Character changes otherwise it is no different than any other dog of any breed
At home mine are and always have been as calm and as neutral as any other breed of Dog i have ever owned That is my opinion on it and that is not going to Change, I expect folk as like mind as yourself will do it and i guess it has already been done crossing the two, But i have never heard of any Top Breeders of WL Shepherds ever do it in Belgium, however i will ask a few when i meet up with them to see what there opinion of it is
I have outlined what would happen with my Pup all i can say is this and it may well hurt a lot of feelings in some but what the heck thats too bad
If Breeders of G.S in General throughout the world carried out the criteria that i have set out above for my Pup before i would ever think of breeding from her then i think on the whole a better type of German Shepherd Dog would evolve, If not on the Sch side of it then some form of work the Dog could be graded in to test it out, Plus the other most important aspects of Joints etc and of a breed survey if possible
Too much Rubbish is bred from today and that is fact of the working line and Show line, As for better conformation in the S.L if that is so why has the shape evolved so much over the generations not to the betterment of the Dog for it it was why is there so much controversy in the German Shepherd Dog world regards that fact at the present time No Stupid Breding by People who breed Willy nilly is the cause of the problems today with the breed in general, But i could talk until the Cows come home it is like talking to thin air so it is time wasted
TessJ10 You have your opinion, i have mine i will not convince you otherwise and i have not set out to do so i am simply giving my opinions to the poster kit kat and you certainly will not change my thoughts on it, So we will have to call it a draw and go with out own thoughts on the subject
Steve1
by steve1 on 13 April 2010 - 08:04
Bazza
You say that many breeders in the UK have crossed WL with SL what evolved from the matings and What have the progeny accomplished in regards work of any kind which has bought about better results than the original lines as they were without the cross,
Steve1
You say that many breeders in the UK have crossed WL with SL what evolved from the matings and What have the progeny accomplished in regards work of any kind which has bought about better results than the original lines as they were without the cross,
Steve1
by Super Para on 13 April 2010 - 08:04
Over the last 30 yrs of working only GSD`S in an operational role (Prison & Police) I have had Dogs from both sides, let me set the record straight none of the Show lines were any good, they were got shot of as soon as possible, like Steve said I could have bitten harder.
Would have looked pretty walking round the streets, nice breed conformation but very low drive any hardened criminal would have been able to hold them off! It all depends on what you want, mixing will not get you a good working dog.
Thankfully most UK Police have finally come around to breeding there own Dogs, something which I tried to implement 20 yrs ago but was looked upon as though I had got two heads.
Each to their own, beauty is in the eye of the beholder! If you want a dog to work stick with pure working lines, it is in the Genes and has been passed from generations!
Would have looked pretty walking round the streets, nice breed conformation but very low drive any hardened criminal would have been able to hold them off! It all depends on what you want, mixing will not get you a good working dog.
Thankfully most UK Police have finally come around to breeding there own Dogs, something which I tried to implement 20 yrs ago but was looked upon as though I had got two heads.
Each to their own, beauty is in the eye of the beholder! If you want a dog to work stick with pure working lines, it is in the Genes and has been passed from generations!
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