Importance of Vita C, Pls help. - Page 4

 FYI - from the Nutrient Requirements for Dogs and Cats. National Research Counsil, National Academy of Sciences, published 2006. I can also post the summary findings for protein and minerals if anyone cares.....

Vitamins

Measurements in grams unless otherwise indicated.µg = micrograms 1µg = 40 IU

Vitamin A, (µg retinol) µg Adequate Intake - 40; Recommended Daily Allowance - 50;Safe Upper Limit - 2,099 (IU)
Vitamin D3, (Cholecalciferol) µg Adequate Intake - 0.36; Recommended Daily Allowance - 0.45; Safe Upper Limit - 2.6
Vitamin E, (alpha tocopheral), mg Adequate Intake - 0.8; Recommended DailyAllowance - 1.0
Vitamin K, (menadione) mg Adequate Intake - 0.043; Recommended Daily Allowance - 0.054
Thiamin, mg Adequate Intake - 0.059; Recommended Daily Allowance - 0.074
Riboflavin, mg Minimum Requirement - 0.138; Recommended Daily Allowance - 0.171
Pyridoxine, (B6) mg Minimum Requirement - 0.04; Recommended Daily Allowance - 0.049
Niacin, (B3) mg Adequate Intake - 0.45; Recommended Daily Allowance - 0.57
Pantothenic Acid, (B5) mg Minimum Requirement - 0.39; Recommended Daily Allowance - 0.49
Folic Acid, (B9) µg Minimum Requirement - 7.1; Recommended Daily Allowance 8.9
Biotin, (B7) aka, Vitamin H; For normal diets not containing raw egg white, adequate biotin is probably by microbial synthesis in the intestine. Diets containing antibiotics may need supplementation
Vitamin B12 (Cobalamine) µg Adequate Intake - 0.92; Recommended Daily Allowance - 1.15 Choline mg Minimum Requirement - 45; Recommended Daily Allowance - 56

Note:
Vitamin C, (ascorbic acid) The liver of cats and dogs have the key enzyme L-gulono-Y-lactone oxidase, (EC 1.1. 3.8), which is able to synthesize the needed ascorbic acid from glucose. The NRC warns against high intake of ascorbic acid, stating the following: "High intake of ascorbic acid may act as a prooxidant and induce lipid peroxidation." This includes Fenton's reaction, which will enhance iron absorption and cause a resulting overdose of this mineral. This reaction is reduced with an increase in Vitamin E levels in the diet. (page 234)

Thx Red Sable;  I also started taking Fish Oil Caps' hasn't helped the eye site so far as I can tell though, how much do  you take?  NO that is not the answer I am looking for but interesting info.

Hi Nan,  I did a total switcheroo, because I was diagnosed with RA, , but I went from not being able to read small print at night, to reading it with no problems at all.

I ate fish(salmon was my favorite choice) 3 to 4 times a week, plus I took UDO's 3-6-9 oil everyday.  I also at the same time stopped eating potatoes, and started eating sweet potatoes instead.
Because of my disease, I changed alot of things, but even before all  my symptoms went away, my eyesight improved drastically.

Ok - I admit that I have not read ALL the posts.  I did ask a Breeder of GSD's (for 30 years) about Vitamin C and hip dysplasia -- she said that is an "old" study and it has been debunked. 

Also, some premium dog foods are complete -- such as Orijen ... it has probiotics, Omega 3 and 6, even Vit C, and the list of ingredients goes on and on.   Personally, I believe that many people are probably "over supplementing" their dogs' diets.

Hodie , I am simply bringing up the Obese factor to make the point that you can be well feed and still have malnutrition. I use this example all the time.. I have a close family member that is Morbidly Obese, and this person did not get that way by eating Oranges and Salad all day long. Lets just say one too many snack foods lives in that house hold at all times. You can also raise a toddler on Donuts and French fries - but don't expect this child to live a long healthy life.

What I am saying is that Dry dog food is not a complete diet , not normally , YES there are dogs out in the world that produce plenty of Vita C and don't need extra Enzymes etc.. But for the Majority they do need the extra supplementation.


Is an Article written in 1997 good enough for you ? http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/AltMed/Alt_Med_Neuro.htm
I can keep digging I have not even touched my College Library .

"Vitamin C works with vitamin E and helps regenerate vitamin E, potentiating its antioxidant effect. Vitamin C supplementation does no harm, since the excess is excreted through the kidney. While dogs produce vitamin C in their bodies (unlike human beings and guinea pigs who must have it in their diet), under stress or disease, they may need vitamin C in excess of their manufacturing capacity. In excessive dose, vitamin C can cause flatulence and diarrhea. This intestinal tolerance level varies among dogs, but is generally around 3000 mg per day in an adult German Shepherd. I recommend this be given to all dogs. For dogs under 2 years of age, give 250 mg vitamin C twice a day. For dogs over 2 years of age, give 500 mg of vitamin C twice a day. "

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/12/2686S  ( Support that Working dogs need extra Vita C)
Some vitamins, particularly antioxidant vitamins, may have a pharmacologic action during exercise. The antioxidant vitamins E and C may inhibit free radical production in skeletal muscle during rigorous exercise (Jenkins 1988). Very large doses of vitamin E are often given to racing dogs but an appropriate dose is unknown. Vitamin C is not an essential nutrient in sedentary dogs and is present in fresh meat but may also be conditionally essential in racing sled dogs. Signs of scurvy were observed in sled dogs fed stored frozen meat for long periods (Butson 1973). These signs were prevented by feeding fresh meat. A decrease in plasma ascorbate in racing sled dogs was also prevented by administering 4 mg/(kJ · d) by mouth (Kronfeld and Donoghue 1988). The oxidation of fat when meat is stored may also increase this requirement for antioxidants.


There are plenty of Articals that are on the Flip side of this, citing that too much is a bad thing , I agree too much of anything is a bad thing.

Chemicals -
I was talking about the added crap like Melamine that was found , mystery meat that may have had enthused animals included etc. I am not just talking about the normal manufacturing process.. I feed kibble myself.. I supplement.

The one bitch that I raised as a puppy myself - not my mom - Has OFA prelim Excellent hips at 16 months and I did supplement her with 500mg Vita C a day as a puppy - also gave her NuVet wafers and feed Life's Abundance and Nutra Nuggets from Costco.. Her mom was NOT OFA , Her Grandmother was OFA Fair out of an OFA Excellent. Father's side strong for hips.  I have been playing follow the leader , but I do want to know the truth - If you have more information for me to debunk Vita C as good supplement please share.

Whisper

"Note:
Vitamin C, (ascorbic acid) The liver of cats and dogs have the key enzyme L-gulono-Y-lactone oxidase, (EC 1.1. 3.8), which is able to synthesize the needed ascorbic acid from glucose. The NRC warns against high intake of ascorbic acid, stating the following: "High intake of ascorbic acid may act as a prooxidant and induce lipid peroxidation." This includes Fenton's reaction, which will enhance iron absorption and cause a resulting overdose of this mineral. This reaction is reduced with an increase in Vitamin E levels in the diet. (page 234)
 "

I was told to Drink Orange Juice during pregnancy with my Iron Supplement to aid my anemia. But this is not saying not to supplement - its saying not to over do it . It also says that Added Vita E reduces the chances of overdosage of Iron uptake. Most dog foods are high in Vita E. Arnt they ?? Let me go look.

Whisper

 Whisper.

I am familiar with the articles you cite. But these are NOT studies, but opinions. Opinions are fine, but they are not research. In order for research to be worth a damn it must be repeated and the study results consistent over thousands of subjects. There is no such research.

It is fine if you want to supplement, but you do so because you wish to do it, and I dare say, without real reason to do so. But that is your right to do it. However, to make blanket statements that something is prevented because one supplements, when, in fact, the animal is probably perfectly healthy, leads to false conclusions.

All creatures are different. All humans are different. I, for one, cannot use Vitamin D properly and it causes me some serious problems. So in my case, it is reasonable to replace the Vitamin which is critical to a host of body functions.

As for melamine, that is a completely different story and those who added it were doing so to boost the nitrogen levels when the product was tested. It should not have been added and some people in China who did add it were executed. In the U.S. it is illegal to put all kinds of animals and certain animal tissues/carcasses (dogs and cats) into dog food and has been for many years.

The fact that you raised a pup who passed OFA and you gave her supplements means nothing.......sorry. I have raised pups who got no supplements who also had good hips. It is mostly genetics and some small part may depend too on environmental factors. Just because X happens when Y was given, or withdrawn, does NOT = that the Y was responsible for the observation.

A healthy, balanced diet includes lots of things with nutrients for which established research suggests are required, both in canines and in humans. Obese people don't eat correctly and probably have a lot of health problems to begin with. 

Most people who are obese in our country simply eat too much. Period. As for what you were told to do during pregnancy, you should absolutely follow the advice of your doctor.

As for debunking..... I don't care. If you or others want to feed whatever, or supplement whatever, do it. I just try to provide an alternative view and try also to make sure people know that just because someone said it does not make it true.

At a detector dog seminar in Alabama a few years ago we had the head vet, Dr. Myers, from Auburn University come and give a lecture on canine nutrition. We were told that 500-1000 mg of Vit. C, preferably in the form of Ester-C be added to the diet of our K9s along with lots of other nutrition info. We do a bowel tolerance test on all incoming K9s and they receive that dosage for the rest of their life. This is obviously for a full grown dog.

Just my .02, but it works for us

Melissa

BIZARRE! Double post like 8 hours later!

OK people;  what's important for eyes?  What vegi is important for the eyes??