Possible Pet Store Sale of Animals Ban - Page 4

The best argument for banning sales of puppies at the "point of sale" whether pet stores, flea markets or a similar venue is because it is the easiest to implement and monitor. Most people who buy puppies do so from pet stores. If the more obvious venues are not able to sell them, it does not prevent sales occurring through advertising, etc but it does make it more difficult to bring buyer and seller together. Pet stores would not want to risk breaking the law and jeopardize their existence by selling puppies.

Additional restrictions on puppy mills creates the potential for legitimate breeders being caught in the same net which would be entirely undesirable. Yes, if the existing laws were enforced it would likely put some puppy mills out of business but from a practical standpoint it is less likely to work because of the absence of resources to police and implement the laws.

Let us assume that PETA is behind this legislation. Does one reject a viable solution just because PETA is in favor of it? The focus should be on how puppy mills sell what they produce. Close that off or make it more difficult for them  and it would be a big step in the right direction.

As Stacy (VomRuiz) said: "The sad part is Hunt Corp. does get all it's puppies from USDA licensed breeders".

VomRuiz, you're welcome.  I'm glad you appreciate a discussion without name calling, some just can't resist..  This is the PDB, after all.

Let the legislation pass, let the enforcement begin, time will tell.  Let's see how many puppy mills really go under.  And if they're still in operation, we'll see what tough laws they pass next.  Coming to a breeder near you!  Or, wait, maybe it will be you. 

"I think it would be great if we had laws like in other countries, where their are standards and guideines for all breeders. Including how often you can breed and that it must be a suitable animal for breeding."

Actually, what would be wonderful would be if Americans had a sense of civic responsibility and were even remotely as concerned with the overall welfare of our society as they are about their own personal, selfish agendas.  I'll use my Germany analogy...again...

It is not uncommon in Germany to see little old ladies out sweeping the street in front of their homes as you drive through small towns and when most everyone does this, the end result is cleaner streets.  Contrast that to what you see in the U.S.: after someone cuts his grass, he gets out his leaf blower and where does he blow his clippings?  Yep, right out into the street!

This mentality plays out the same way with dogs.  You will virtually never see a stray dog or cat in Germany and if you ever have the opportunity to go to an animal shelter, you will find it mostly empty, even while it is illegal there to euthanize an otherwise healthy animal.  This is possible because people are responsible, spay and neuter their pets and don't allow them to wander at large and breed indisciminately.  Like dirty streets, the German's understand that avoiding an animal overpopulation problem is easily avoidable if everyone does his/her part.

These things are not mandated by law there because they don't have to be.  The Germans understand that living in a society with other human beings entails some responsibility beyond their own interests.  That is what a society is...people working and living together cooperatively.  I don't know what the laws in Germany are as they pertain to puppy mills and/or pets being sold in stores but would submit that even if they do exist, they are unnecessary because there is no market for animals that are sub-standard or bred and raised in squalid conditions.

It would be wonderful if we had the same sense of civic responsibility and sometimes took the greater good into consideration but clearly we do not.  When people in a society will not do what is necessary to insure peaceful coexistence on their own, it has to be mandated.

And, RFS, before you start sniping about someone else's intellect, you might want to learn how to correctly punctuate a basic sentence.  Just a thought...

Very good points Keith, and I agree.  But I still think it goes back to bans.  Lawsuits, and the fear of such, have resulted in pointing a finger at someone else, nobody feels they have responsibility any longer, the just look to see what will bring suit.  It's a shame, really, we've come to rely on someone else telling us what to do and when to do it.  Thanks for putting that out there, it's very true.

I fully agree, travels, that we are all made to pay for the indiscetions of the few but in this particular case, I see elimination of the market as the most pragmatic and cost effective solution to the problem...cutting off the head of the snake, if you will.

I also don't necessarily see an association between the pet store/puppy mill world and the larger dog ownership/breeding world in general and believe it is hyperbole to suggest that the ordinance mentioned above could somehow be broadened to include the latter.  If such an attempt was made, that is the battle to fight; not this one.  If we defend the rights of pet stores and puppy mills to exist, we create a defacto relationship between them and us that people like PETA and the HSUS can and will use to paint the public's perception of all of us as being one and the same.

As for mandatory spay/neuter laws, I don't have a problem with them.  I lived recently in a city where we had such an ordinance and it required about five minutes of my time per year for me to email a form to the animal control director to obtain an annual breeder's permit...no hassle, no hoops to jump through and it was free.

I certainly hope you're right but our recent history does not bode well for keeping bans where they begin.  I've seen some spin out of control and even those who will be hurt in the end, initially rally for the cause.  There are many examples I could site, but it would only spin this thread out of control and the bashing would begin.  So, we'll leave it here, I've said my piece and stand by it.  Thank you for a rational discussion, it's appreciated!

Yes, it was wonderful to see a rational discussion between adults, even from disagreeing viewpoint, without any flaming going on.  I knew it was possible.  Thanks to all of you for renewing my faith in the folks on this board.

I just wanted to weigh in on this with my own opinion.

Keith, your posts and several others made sense.  I agree with the spaying and neutering of dogs and cats that are mixed breeds, or not breed worthy.  I also don't like to see dogs sold in pet stores, and yes, I have seen films of the conditions that many of the parents of these puppies live in.  Except that if you are being inspected by the USDA, and you are licensed, then you likely do at least bother to clean your facility every now and again, and your animals are likely not crowded into cages so small they have no room to live.

I've said before that there are puppy mills that are clean, well lit, and well maintained, with healthy, sometimes even titled and surveyed (whatever is appropriate to that breed, of course) dogs, selling hundreds of puppies per year, and then there are the dirty, dingy places maybe breeding half a dozen different breeds in tiny cages, selling hundreds of puppies per year.  If I purchased a titled, surveyed bitch and a titled surveyed stud, both GSD, and bred them every time she came into heat, sold the puppies as fast as I could for as much as I could, that would make me a puppy mill, simply because the purpose of obtaining them was for the money I could make from the offspring.

There are a lot of puppies sold through pet stores, yes.  Ban them (My, doesn't PETA love that word!), and the breeders will go to a more direct route of selling...Farmer's markets, flea markets, street corners, vans and trucks in parking lots...As you said, there is not enough manpower to stop it, no matter how many laws you enact. 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if you cannot (or will not) enforce basic laws already on the books, you will have a hard time enforcing the new laws you enact.  There will always be ways to get around the laws, no matter how many there are.  Of course, honest, ethical breeders won't try to get around the laws, because they follow them, but hey, why use logic?  The laws are supposed to target criminals, but criminals are harder to find and deal with, so instead let's just harrass the good guys!

Enforcement and education is the key, not more laws.  On this, I have to agree.  More laws only make more criminals...unapprehended criminals, since there is insufficient manpower, but criminals, nonetheless.  This doesn't help the animals.

Crys