E collar for police dogs? - Page 4

Hans, you have a very similar outlook on your relationship w/the dog. I am often criticized for not interjecting all sorts of "props" into our relationship to make the dog look "flashier." I look at my dog as my friend, and he works for me because I asked him to, and because we're a team. People who think otherwise are missing out, IMO.

Having said that...I am not opposed to ecollars in all scenarios. I am opposed to them when used abusively for what I consider stuipid reasons- like one or two extra points.

Hans,
You asked and I gave you my reasons and my experience.  

I want a buddy who works with me because he enjoys it because we are a team. Yes he messes up sometimes, but so do
I. 

That is exactly what I have and what I want.  My training and relationship with my dog strengthens this bond.  My dog works in drive because he enjoys it and enjoys working with me.  He is a happy, hard working, high driven dog.  My training revolves around positive reinforcement, but corrections are necessary at times. 

I personally like my dog to respond to me and not to some doohickey on his neck

Am I to understand that you do not use a collar on your dogs necks to train them?  Isn't any collar a doohickey.  

You never use any form of compulsion in your training?  IMO, chain choke collars are more abusive and detrimental than E collars or prong collars.  I agree with your post and I have a lot of respect for you and you have some beautiful dogs at your place.  I have had success using E collars for years and really haven't seen any one abuse them or use them too harshly. Perhaps, this is why I'm confused by the controversy.  I have seen heavy handed handlers in some SchH clubs crank the crap out of their dogs with choke or prong collars. I won't train or decoy at clubs like that, so I leave.  I don't need a SchH club to train my dogs just a good decoy.  The guys in my K9 unit love their dogs and treat them like part of the family, none of these guys are ever harsh or abusive with any form of correction.  Some use E collars, some prong collars, some choke collars.  We all use leather collars and 99% of the time the dog is on leather.   I will be the first to agree that in the wrong hands it can easily be misused.  But in the right hands with the right training it can be a great tool. 

JMO,

Jim

Jim, you are in a different world than the podium junkies; people you work with use their dogs for real work and I think see them a bit differently. I have seen firsthand sport-only people abusing their dogs w/ecollars and laughing about how high it was turned (because this means their dog is very tough, don't you know, and that makes their penis bigger, or their breasts- whichever the case may be, lol). I think when your dog becomes and extension of your ego, you are much more likely to abuse it for points than when you go to work with your dog day in and day out.

Jim ,
please first let me say this.  I agree with what you write here 99% of the time. As a matter of fact 100% of the time until now. However
I am just expressing my opinion same as you are expressing yous. Nothing personal. As you say:"To each their own." I am not against you or anybody using the collar. I am just saying why I am not using it.
 It is a philosophical difference and not a critique.
        You are asking if I am using chocker or pinch. Yes I do and the dog understands that it is me doing it. Where with e collar the dog does not understand that. As a matter of fact pamphlet from early Tri Tronics days was using this fact as a  selling point. They claimed that negative reinforcement is not coming from the trainer, only positive is. Thus the strength of the relationship between the handler and dog is better, they claimed. 
I on the other hand  believe, that negative comes together with positive and it is a part of the relationship. Of the packing order.  Dog is motivated by positive and negative reinforcement to respect the handler as a leader. There is a short circuit in this relationship if the dog does not see that the negative can come from the trainer/handler.  
 I must admit that the training results with e collar  are high. But I do not believe that the result justify the means. 
Again I understand why you are using it and I hope that you will understand why I am not. 
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com 

 I have to agree (mostly) with Hans. The reason he states for not using it is almost the same reason I dont like it. I want the dog to know the correction is coming form the handler. I think some dogs MAY think it is coming form the handler but not always. 

I do however somewhat like the pager function although I believe something much more sophisticated could be developed for that purpose. 

The most effective and practical tool for me personally is the prong collar. I use it for direction more than for correction and I always use it with the snap attached to both rings. I dont like chokes because they have the same effect of a prong with snap attached to live ring only. Prongs are not used properly 90% of the time.  

It doesnt matter what tool you are using.....they can all be abused just like a bit on a horse. They can also be used for communication. Sometimes that communication involves corrections, sometimes direction and sometimes praise. All of which play a part in the unique relationship between dog and handler. 

Jim, you describe your dept very well and I wish all depts viewed their k9 units that way. Sadly, I have found that to be the exception rather than the rule.

Always keep in mind that the better foundation a dog has from puppyhood on.......the less corrections it will need down the road. Also, many corrections are only correcting past mistakes by the handler. If a dog truly deserves a correction then it should get one and know where it came from. The respect then achieved will only strengthen the bond not destroy it. 

Very nice posts Jim, Hans and Scoutk9GSD. 

All of you are excellent dog handlers.

Jenni78,
If I thought the collar could do some of things you mentioned I might find some new uses for it....  No wonder my dog doesn't mind it. 

Hans,
There are very few bad reactions when you collar condition the dog properly, which I usually do for two weeks before using it.   Then pair the correction with a prong collar or other collar, testing the dogs response on a very low level for the first use.  Next I use both the prong and E collar together giving simultaneous light corrections with both.  I rarely ever crank on my dog with a prong collar, just a quick pop.  So when using both collars and simultaneously correcting or stimulating with both the dog accepts the E collar as it does the prong.  It clearly understands where the corrections are coming from me and has no adverse effects.  It is really not much different than my approach to using a prong collar.  the dog wears the prong when out playing for several sessions until it is used to it, then we begin to train with it gradually.  If a person takes the same approach it really makes no difference to the dog.  I still use a prong on my dog for heeling and some control work and the E collar is on as well.  Neither correction is severe and my dog takes them in stride with no loss of attitude or precision or diminished spirit or temperament. 

Properly conditioning the dog and acclimating the dog to the collar is key.  My dog wears it when we go for walks or throwing the ball for a couple of weeks before it is ever turned on.  We do normal obedience for a couple of weeks and the collar is worn by the dog but not used.  The day I decide to use it is in conjunction with the prong and a quick high energy training session that ends on a very positive note.  I repeat that for several sessions watching the dogs reactions and decide if it will work well for this particular dog.  It is not for every dog, some dogs are hyper sensitive to it and even low levels give a strong response.  My dogs know the correction comes from me and usually get a negative reinforcer such as "wrong", "nine" or "no" combined with my corrections.  To me it is very important the dog knows why it is being corrected and that I am not pleased with that behavior.  It is even more important that my dogs know when I am happy or pleased by their behaviors and they get rewarded and praised.  My ratio of reward and praise is way way higher than my corrections. 

JMO,

Jim

OK Jim, that is a good point,  and I admit  I like it, but I still have a problem.  I just see the dogs who are trained with e-collars, even by experts, that they are not listening well or responding very little if the e-collar is off. I am talking about top trainers on National level. (And let's face it most trainers or K9 handlers are not even close to these training maniacs:).)
   For the times when for what ever reason  all  training equipment is off the dog, I, and many others, can do with tug toy and basic collars more consistent and  mainly reliable  job. Now indeed it takes me 1 year to do what someone with the collar can do  in 1/4 of the time, that is if the equipment is on. But the reliability of the dog properly trained without e collar is higher if the equipment is not present. That tells me that trainers who are using e collars are not able to build as solid response relationship as people who train dogs without benefit of it. The reason I believe is this.The influence of the trainer, same as intensity of a  light  beam, diminishes with the square of the distance. That could be a good argument for an e collar and yes it is only when the e-collar is on and only for performance sake , not the relationship sake as will be explained next. The problem is that the e-collar trained dog without such device realizes that  he does not need to listen because he is for time being out of the effective  influence of the trainer. Where the trainer who is using traditional equipment is forced to work through tedious traditional training motivations on convincing the dog that the distance should have no effect on the response to his handler .  Look on herding trials of Border collies where these dogs respond superbly on a distance of  2/3 + of a mile, same as  S&R dogs GSD Labs and other breeds can do.  I have seen worried look on top competitors faces stemming out of the worry how long is it going to take for the dog to realize that the collar is off for time of competition. As matter of fact many dogs become competition wise and will perform horribly in the competition ring because they know that in this scenario the collar is not on. 
 I believe that this is the reason why the PDs require that the e-collar must be on the dog trained with such collars during their entire time on duty/shift.  Now what will happen if the collar comes off in action? Any lawyer who worries about performance of a PD dog and insists that the dogs must have an e collar for liability reasons now will see that such situation will increase such liability.
 
Again, as far as quiet recall. Ultrasonic whistle works great. $7.99
http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=2529829
 But that is me old fashioned Luddite dog trainer. :)
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

I just see the dogs who are trained with e-collars, even by experts, that they are not listening well or responding very little if the e-collar is off.


EXACTLY!!

I"ve seen this too. The dog totally blows the handler off if the handler doesn't have his 'crutch' handy!  IT STINKS!!

I also understand what Jim is saying, but, of course, the problem is there are more lousy trainers out there than there are good trainers who understand the collar, and use it appropriately.

Here is a great clip that shows that dogs can be trained to a high level of obedience without ecollars,prong or anything.Maybe at first they might have had some kind but in this kind of team work i don't think so.Plus these guys...they are old school. Great to watch what these dogs do with just a whisle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw