Combining show dogs with working dogs - Page 4

Personally, I'm seriously considering working/show combos.  From a standpoint of genetic diversity it makes sense.  I do think that a lot of research will have to be done to find the right mix. From purely a health standpoint genetic bottlenecks are never a good thing.  Without health what else is there?  I think it's a matter of keeping an open mind to all possibilities instead of dismissing an option that may prove worthy of our consideration.

Crossing a working line x showline dog  produces dogs that are not up to expectations from either side, but it certainly doesn't make them mongrels.Before this will ever be exceptable  both sides would have to settle for setbacks, less showline type conformation from showline side and less drive and working ability from working side.Neither side of these two venues are willing to compromise for the sake of unifing the lines.Thats fine the way I see it,however these people are only capable of seeing the gsd as one of these two types,extreme working or extreme showline it seems that the ordinary common companion dog that other people find to be perfect for them and their situation is a worthless mongrel in the eyes of some,even though his drives and conformation are quite efficient in the eyes of their owners.Why is it so hard for  people to understand that we  don't all need or desire dogs bred to extremes for show or work. Complain all you want, but the fact is their are currently 3 seperate lines 1  for you working line people, 1 for you showline people,1 for us ordinary people that won't ever see field or ring or showring.

The gap between the two ends of the GSD genetic pool aren't going to closes as long as Show line folks focus ONLY on the conformation/ movement end of selecting a pedigree....  and as long as Working line folks focus ONLY on the working abilities of the pedigree.  Choosing working lines parents with "V" conformation AS WELL AS excellent working ethics... choosing show line parents with honest and strong working ethics AS WELL AS correct conformation and movement can/would/should close the gap between the two ends of the pendulum.  

Will the Show line dog win the top field competitions??? Will the working line dog win "VA"... no.  At least not in the forseeable future.  But If the goals are for the COMPLETE package the gap can be closed.  Competitors on either end will argue that they're not willing to give up their  view of the perfect dog for what they choose.... but IS THAT BREEDING FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE BREED AS A WHOLE??  

Dunno... but I would choose a working line with good conformation over one with poor conformationi, even if I lost a couple points on the field.  I would also choose a Show line with the mental and physical soundness to work on the field.  Just my choice.  I don't think I loose anything... I feel that's being MORE selective... rather than Settling....   just MHO.

I do not mind crossing.  I own, train, and love both types and I would like to see more diversity.  However, I'd rather see show lines with good drives being bred to working lines with good conformation, rather than just assuming or hoping that breeding a great working line with so-so conformation to a great show line with so-so work ethic is going to improve either because it's not.  I have a young show line dog and I show him quite a bit but I'm every bit as skeptical as the next person.  However there are some nice working lines out there now that have really really nice conformation, better than most of the show lines, IMO.  I'd rather focus on dogs like that then take the extreme type show line and breed to the extreme drive working line and get some half-assed compromise of a dog.  So if you are looking to improve conformation in working lines, then find working lines with great conformation.  If you are looking to improve work in show lines, find show lines with good work.

litter 2) beautiful & talented show line sire/dam - no line breeding

And just WHERE, may I ask, would you find these dogs?

Show lines are so inbred, that's almost asking the impossible.

In Europe it is done quite regularly to outcross into new blood. It is done with structurally perfect dogs with dark pigment and excellent workability. I am always using example of Villo Arminius.
Which was excellent working dog. People here in USA are afraid to do it and I do not blame them if I look at USA show dogs.
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com

Nice dog Hans, but the show line dogs of 20 years ago were a world apart from todays showline dogs.  20 years ago the dogs could still work well.

Jim

I would say one reason why so more showline breeders consider it is that damn near every showline dog goes back to the same handful of top studs...showlines are MUCH less diverse! Of course there are popular working line studs too, but working lines do not have the same genetic bottleneck showlines do. Another plus of working lines is many of them bring VERY low ZWs to the table! Showline studs with ZWs in the 70s are hard to come by, 60s are unheard of.

I, personally, would not do a cross to improve working ability. If I have a bitch with working ability so poor I need a working line to "fix" it, that's not a breed quality bitch in my book.

I have not done a work/show cross, I do not feel I have the knowledge at this time to attempt it, but I am not wholly against carefully done crosses with specific goals in mind, not crossing them just to cross them.