An epiphany...... - Page 4

You all have some good points. The fact is that the Europeans do have more opportunities to train. Schutzhund becomes a lifestyle, not just "something to do with the dog." For some of the Europeans, that lifestyle is easier, because there are 2or more clubs withinh EASY driving distance...often without even leaving town. That makes putting in the hard work and time necessary to excell easier, too. ¶ For Americans, "easy driving distance" translates to "one to two hours." That cuts into the lifestyle, when one must work a regular job to support it. :-) It makes putting in the hard work and time harder, too. The Europeans don't have to send their "rejects" to shelters or euthanize them. That would be a very foolish thing to do, when they can sell those dogs to Americans and Japanese, who think that a dog is "better," simply because it is imported. Oh, yeah, that IS what they do with them! :-)

Mystere, I think you are dead on with your reasoning.Also the fact that it is a way of life instead of just a weekend hobby enables them to see what is needed in the way of improovement for the breed, and knowledge of how to go about accomplishing it. After all some if not most of the well known breeds originated in Germany and other parts of Europe. I'll give credit where credit is due and in this case it's pretty obvious in my opinion.

Sue --

So, clearly not GARD, but I thought I might point out what popped into my mind first thing.  How many people do you think are blind to their dog's faults because they love them?  How many breeders produce litters from dogs that perhaps are good enough but arent great?  I think alot of that occurs because of an owners link to their dog.  That is an issue we have over here moreso than in Europe.  We really do put alot more heart and sould into our dogs then they do (at least from my experiences.)

I dont necisarily agree with the OP -- but I can also see that side of things.  If we took the emotion out of it then in general we could be more logical about breedings.  Emotion really doesnt have a place in breeding decisions...and I think all to much it ends up as a factor....not all the time certainly, but frequently.

As far as the SchH Ch comment -- how many folks here have griped about the SchH champions of the past few years?  Some of them have probably been good dogs...some of them probably not so much.  I think the issue with that isnt so much with SchH as it is with the folks who breed to these dogs without really looking at them too much.  A crappy dog can have a shining moment...but it's still a crappy dog...knowing that requires watching it in training, watching it in more then one trial, research, questioning, etc....I think that while it certainly isnt everyone, many people on this side of the pond care more about those shining moments that may earn a shiney title then they do about the big picture.

~Cate

I absolutely agree with you that there are people who rationalize and breed shitters,  I don't see this as a major reason as to why working/sport  dogs are better in Europe and i disagree that dogs are better  because Europeans are more in love with the sport, so the dogs are a means to an end.   In my opinion there are lots of legitimate reasons, with a big one being the depth of experience and the depth of quality dogs and clubs to be found in Europe. Even schutzhund is still a relatively unknown sport in the USA, even amongst dog people.  Our organization didn't even exist until the 1970s. 

The reason why the dogs on average are better in many European countries is because :
1. there is greater genetic pool of quality dogs
2.there is a smaller genetic pool of crappy dogs.
3.Breed warden, which is a knowledgeable, an unemotional guide, is able to  match complimenting stud and dam.
 He /she knows all the dog's on the pedigree, their faults and virtues and knows how to match them/dove tail them. That is since there are no perfect dogs absolutely necessary knowledge for breeding quality dogs.
4. Dog in order to be bred must have  title, show and breed survey.
This hard organizational structure is against free spirited nature of American people. Europeans love their dogs just as much or just as little or are emotional just as much or just as little as Americans. However this structure helps them to produce, on average, better dogs. 
 On the other hand, knowledgeable Americans, by not being bound by rigid rules, are able to produce what ever type of dog is needed in society and culture,  without fighting wind mills of SV or similar organization. (Emphasis is on word knowledgeable.) That is why, for example, police or prison quality dogs are hard to find in Germany any more and they are around only as undesirable throwbacks. However if there is a need for these dogs in US, then I can pull them out of genetic pool and produce them without being forced to answer to some rules and potentially being frown up on by SchH officials.

Prager(Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com
 

I love my dogs, and I love the work my dogs do.  

as long as there are multiply needs for dogs (pets, sport, service, etc)  there will be breeders to supply. 

THAT is the problem.  too many dogs breed for a single specific need, and not the overall dog. 

We can debate all day about one sport vs. another,,,,what schutzhund was and what it is,,,what a "real" dog is,,, this list can go on forever. 

Prage said it best,,,, On the other hand, knowledgeable Americans, by not being bound by rigid rules, are able to produce what ever type of dog is needed in society and culture, without fighting wind mills of SV or similar organization.

down side is we will have to take the good with the bad.  ability to breed good working dogs without any type of title as some form of proof of there working ability,  with the sacrifice of those who breed there titled dog, just because its titled and deemed "breedworthy"

john

Ok, I know it is much easier to attempt to make me into some heartless dog villian than to look at the real issue, and possibly (if you breed dogs) what your role in this may be.

The point I think the original poster (this was stolen from another board) is trying to say is the hard core sport people of the French ring, NVBK, and KNPV look at dogs from strickly a working standpoint first. The work and quality of the dog is what matters most. Not I need fluffy to be my constant companion, sleep on my bed, and tend to my emotional needs. Another human being should fill that role, not a dog.

A dog is just that a dog, and they should serve a purpose. Especially if it is a working or sporting breed. Working or sporting breeds should do that work or be active in a sport. If you want a pet, go to the local shelter and get yourself one. Don't go F-ing up a magnificent, majestic breed of dog, because you want or need a cuddle buddy on a lonely Saturday night. I think this is what the OP is trying to say and I agree.

Even the best breeders breeding the best dogs don't get 100% success rate so there is no reason what so ever to breed abything but the best of the best. I won't get into culling because that is a completly lost cause on this forum, but what would happen if breeders, who really cared about the integrity of their breed, refused to sell "pet" puppies? Maybe someone would go looking for a breed that is a more suitable "pet" or better yet go get one from an animal shelter?

Anyone who knows me knows I love my dogs as much as anyone. For those who may choose to believe I am some heartless person who views dogs as "things" just know that as of right now, i do not have a working dog. I have a Malinios with a bad back who no one in their right mind would want to own as a "pet", a 4 year old GSD bitch I pulled off a zip line and her 4 cross puppies that were going to Wal-mart in a box. That is what I have taking up all my kennel space right now. Maybe that is why I am a little jaded on this subject so forgive my frankness. Truth hurts folks.

 If it is to uncomfortable to take a good hard look at yourself, then don't do it and carry on my way ward sons and daughters.

Interesting topic. Some good discussion on here actually (what a refreshing change).

My humble .02 and a few thoughts following.
I think as lovers of the breed we all can admire certain things about the different types within the breed. I am going to speak in general terms. No bashing of anyone's chosen type of dogs or anyone personally. Just opening it up for more thoughts from anyone else.

There is no perfect dog. Not for the masses or even for one person. Every dog has his flaws and given just one dog left in this world, he will be almost perfection to some, a shitter to others and somewhere inbetween to most. He is what he is.

"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

A properly built balanced showline dog, with rich deep black and red coloring is stunning to see. The video of Dingo vom Haus Gero for example: www.youtube.com/watch   I can appreciate the movement and grace in the dog along with his fine looks. He is instantly recognizable for what he is all over the world. A German Shepherd Dog. John Q American homeowner's vision of a GSD.

The working line dogs bring dark pigment, drive, hardness, civility and what I call grit. Without the working lines, the sables, bi-colors and blacks would be nearly gone if not gone already. For the most part, they are the workers left in the breed since a lot of the temperament and drive has been preserved. A well done OB routine with focus and control in a high drive dog is sheer beauty. I like to see a dog fight with the helper, not hang off a sleeve like so much dead weight. The K9 that won't quit and run no matter how much punishment he's taking from the perp. All desired qualities in a dog for me.

A true herding dog tending flock all day, every day. That dog brings intelligence, stamina, biddability and yet independence to the table. His structure must be sound to allow him to work as he does. Even if he's not so "pretty" to look at, to me that dog is poetry in motion and I have stood in awe of his ability to think and reason. It's very sad to me that this type of shepherd is becoming less and less common.

cont. below......

cont. from above........

"can't see the forest for the trees"

It's all about balance. Selective breeding for only one or two traits over a long period of time is faulty.
When I was growing up the GSD was said to be the best at nothing but second best at everything. He was the police dog, SAR dog, seeing-eye dog and family pet. He was handsome, loyal, intelligent, protective and above all else, versatile. We hear a great deal about "the golden middle". I do believe that should be our ultimate goal and we should all work towards that end within the different types. Use only tested breeding stock to reduce genetic problems within reason. Breed to the standard for the breed and avoid extremes. An oversized, over angulated roach backed dog isn't correct but an extreme prey monster isn't either. No more so than a dog with such poor temperament that it makes him unsafe to take out in public.

I believe any dog worthy of being bred should be capable mentally and physically to go out and do the job it was meant to do. Showlines "can't work" or working line dogs "can't be V or VA "rated. I see no real reason for this. They all can be improved through breeding of the entire dog and not just a few qualities. Breed the dogs, not just the pedigree, titles, show rating, current popularity or trend. Know your dog, good, bad and indifferent and what's behind him. Take the best qualities from the showlines, working lines and real herding dogs and work towards that goal. A handsome dog with correct structure that has stamina, drive, soundness and a balanced temperament. Not perfection but "the golden middle". There will always be extremes in conformation and temperament to a degree but those extremes should not be wholly desirable of themselves much less the norm.

"to achieve your goals, one must set high standards but also realize perfection is not attainable"

Max's vision for his dog was a great one. I often wonder what he would have to say about it today.

Excellent post, MBJ!  If only the breeders would avoid extremes, the GSD would be a much better dog.


GARD said: "A dog is just that a dog, and they should serve a purpose."

Then, a little later in the same post, he mentions culling...

Okay, let me tell you a story. There was this guy in Quebec who got a GSD from a friend's litter. He needed it to replace his elderly watchdog, that was crippled up with arthritis. The old dog lived another 3 years. When he finally had a friend put her out of her misery with a bullet between the eyes, he discovered his new dog wasn't quite the watchdog he'd been hoping for. He whined and howled because he was lonely, and wouldn't bark at people he knew.

Operating on the philosophy of 'a dog is just a dog, and should serve a purpose', the man installed a burglar alarm in the house and announced to his friends and neighbours that the dog was now out of a job, and if no one would take it as a pet, he was going to shoot it.  (One has to wonder just how a dog tied to an 8 foot chain, 30 feet away from the house was going to keep the house safe even if it DID bark.) 

This dog is now my hearing ear service dog. He is also an excellent watchdog, and in my previous home, scared my postie so badly that I wouldn't get my mail delivered if he was out in the dog yard. (The postie was afraid he'd jump the fence.)  He's safe with kids, rock solid in noisy traffic and crowds, and has never growled at anyone. He's very alert, and often alerts me to sounds he's not trained to react to simply because he focusses on them, then goes to check them out.

GARD, I know you're not heartless, and as I spent a lot of time around farmers as a child, I understand the mindset you're talking about. I don't agree with it, though. It reduces the dog to a disposable item, to be killed (culled) sold, or dropped at the nearest shelter when it is no longer useful.

Even though us North Americans tend to be softies, there's still far too many people who have this sort of attitude, and it applies to pets as well as working dogs. "Oh, we've got new carpets, and the dog sheds too much." "We're having a baby, and we're afraid the dog might hurt the child."  "The dog growled at my son when he pulled its tail."

As for working dogs, the usefulness of the dog also depends a lot on the skill of the handler. A dog considered worthless by a poor handler may well blossom under a better one, if given the chance. I've seen this happen many, many times with horses as well as dogs.  Unless the dog is physically ill or mentally unstable, culling or dumping the dog at the shelter is never the best answer.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!