What lines do NOT make good pets - Page 4

BeeTree:  Exactly right, thanks for rephrasing for me. 

If you look at what the OP wrote, you see the specific topics of concern are related to excess energy, aggression, and dominance. That's why I recommended someone with those concerns to not pick workinglines in general. Clearly, without any further information as to the exact living situation none of us is qualified to recommend a specific bloodline or dog for the family/individual in question. The reason I never mentioned temperament is because that is a sine qua non for a good dog, regardless of home or function. I'm sorry now that I didn't begin by stating the obvious. :P

Once, again, a really interesting and informative thread. I completely agree the owner has to know what kind of dog they want. But sometimes even with the best intention, a novice doesn't get the picture. Five years ago, when I started looking for a GSD pup, I spoke to several breeders, many of whom were very generous with their time. When I talked to show breeders, they said the best pets were show dogs, when I spoke to working breeders, they said the best pets were working dogs. Breeders of high drive dogs did not want to sell to me, and I had no problem with that. They were correct. When I first met my breeder to look at his pups, my husband and I had two of our kids with us. The kids were of course well behaved, and already knew how to handle dogs because they grew up with them. The breeder commented to me that he always like to see well behaved kids, it was a good indication of a good home for the pup. We chose the quietest of the three available males, because we thought it would be the best match for us. What is interesting is that as a complete novice, I bought a West German highline dog (with Sch titled parents) thinking it was a "working"dog, and have essentially a show dog. I did not know there was such a thing as a sport dog vs a working dog. It doesn't matter, he is a great pet, and maybe next time I will go for a different line. My question is, of course I want a stable dog, of course I want a healthy dog, but how do I know how much drive I can handle well, if I have never done it before? I have no trouble with a pup being mouthy, I can limit it or redirect. But other things worry me more. Are some dogs inherently more inclined to dog agression, or is it all in the socialization and "pack structure" if you will? I have some experience with a fearful and seemingly dominant dog, and have no desire to do that ever again. Prior to her, I had well behaved pet dogs all my life, and my GSD is very well behaved, not perfect, but far better then most dogs in the area. Does this mean I could or should handle a higher drive dog in the future? Phoebe

I have never had a puppy who was too mouthy, pushy, or energetic for me.  I like brassy, rude puppies.  That said, I know more AKC OB people than I do Schutzhund people and virtually all of them blanch at a dominant, mouthy, pushy puppy or dog.  These folks are usually of the opinion that a good dog can get along with everyone without an issue and a bad dog bites.  Period.  And they are the more experienced dog people out there.  So I think it is fair to say that while a working lines gsd can be a good pet in the hands of any smart, experienced person (with some vim and vigor) I for one would hesitate to recommend it to the average family. 

I know people learn and cope.  I am surprised at the range of physical abilities of SchH handlers at shows.  Some people are so clunky they can't avoid forging and lagging on themselves.  Yet they get by okay with the right attitude.  I think most people however do not think they are supposed to cope with holes in the pants and pinpricks in the hands and wild little exuberant puppies for very long.  They might as well get a more laid back dog.  Further, someone like my mother (70s and little) has more than enough experience and attitude, but she is no longer strong enough to manage a gsd safely in all situations.  She switched at about 70 to a smaller breed, and I think wisely.

Bottom line: it's not saying anything bad about working lines to say they don't make the best pets for the average family with average skills and motivation, is it?

Phoebe - I think a key question for you is whether the pup (line, parents) tend to be very suspicious.  It's a trait that is useful in some training, but hard in everyday life.  A lot of vigor, and a lot of bark are also tougher to train away if you don't want it. 

Phoebe,
After 26 years experience with Golden Retrievers, placid natured everyone's friend type of dogs to a high drive GSD as of two years ago, was a real eye opener for us. Our GSD boy came to work with us from 8 weeks of age meeting at least 10 to 20 new people per day, as for socialisation with people from a small puppy, he was in a great enviroment. At 4 months of age, he began to bark at people he had never met before (strangers), given his size at that age was controllable, but this situation worsened as he matured and by 9 months of age, he began to bail up and lunge at strangers aggressively. Anyone he had met before or knew them as regulars, he would meet them at the door with a wagging tail and a lick, but anyone he hadn't met that was new to him, he would fly off the handle, barking etc to the point we had to barricade him away form customers for obvious reasons. At his first check up at the vets for us at 14 months old, he bailed up the vet as he entered the room and we had to muzzle him and introduce him to the vet slowly until he would accept the vet examining him. The vet told us that he had never seen a GSD behave aggressively like ours did and suggested that he had a behavoral issue which for us was a problem too.

Not knowing how to correct stranger aggression and he was dog aggressive also, we were introduced to a friend of a friend who was a police K9 trainer to take a look at him. The K9 trainer put him through some tests spending a couple of hours with us and said he was 'perfect", hard strong and fearless and would take him in a heartbeat as a secruity dog where he said that only one in fifty GSD's will pass the screening test for police and security work. The K9 trainer once told what line he was from, was familiar with the line and confirmed that line had produced some good hard dogs in the past.

As novice GSD owners, our boy was a major headache in terms of aggression towards anything or anyone strange to him, but after learning how to train and correct this behavior which took a lot of work on our part, at 23 months old now, he is 90% good and still improving. As a pet, he is gentle loving and affectionate if not more so than our Golden Retrievers and perfectly trustworthy, but with strangers, he is controllable and well behaved now, but you have to watch him and introduce him to people in a particular way that we were taught in order for him to accept them as a friend. Definitely from our experience I would say some lines will produce more aggressive dogs than others and although it was well worth the effort required to controll our boy's stranger aggression, it was hard work for us having limited experience in this area of training.

Obviously dogs that are genetically driven to react to stimuli by charging and BITING and who in maturity are capable of "taking down" a 6 foot man are NOT the best choice of a pet for a family with old folks, wth squealing children, with lots of visitors.

In fact I don't think they are the best pet for anyone. I believe they are hobbyist's curiosities and/or "tools" to be used towards an end for those who need them for a job/endeavor.

Most families KNOW they wouldn't want a working line GSD.

The problem arises when someone's personal values lead them to believe  "a working dog is a good thing" - but - they don't understand that the traits that make a dog capable of Schutzhund titles, for example,  are not traits that they'd personally enjoy living with.

Most people on this board are certainly not within the normal range of the pet owning public. Let's all admit that!

Of course there are people who have dogs in outside kennels and only interact with them when they WANT to interact with them. Personally, I don't consider those dogs pets. It's SIMPLE to have a successful relationship with a dog if you simply SHUT IT AWAY whenever your needs dictate.

Pets are dogs that live with you and are sometimes underfoot and interruptive when you DON'T want them to be - but you coexist with them anyway - and consider their needs EVEN when they conflict with your own needs. Therefore, laid back, non-working line dogs are far superior as pets for the vast majority of families.

Imo, of course

Thanks again for the continuing replies....some good info here. Some of you might remember from previous posts, but I'm doing some homework preparing to possibly get a puppy or dog in the future. I do plan on traning my future dog in schutzhund. When I started this post I had origianlly hoped to get responses about certain lines that produced some "nasty" dogs, but this is all good info. Example, when you search Crock you find alot of threads about handler aggresion on the PDB.

ok so here we go....

I have a bitch whose lines are Feivel (Crok), Bandit van Gogh and Xito Maineiche.
Very, very nice bitch. Good with kids, other dogs, people. Just took her to an AKC show with 2500 other dogs, no probs.  Her daughter (whose sire is 100% working lines) is very much the same.

So YES, working lines can make great, stable companions. Would they fit into a "normal" sedentary lifestyle? Probably not. But for someone with a bit of common sense, who sets aside quality time with their dog daily, who walks, hikes, etc,  a working line can be a wonderful choice.

BTW-- my female may be small, but she can sure make an honest attempt at taking down a 6 foot man:) :)
She is also easily handled by my 7 y/o daughter.

--Mary