Do you train the "prey shaking" out of them?

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by ShelleyR on 11 March 2009 - 14:03

I don't have a problem with a pup shaking the prey when I am building drive. However, once we start formal protection training with the helper we try to channel the young dog to be calm in the grip once the "fight" is over, hold the dead prey calmly for awhile before the out. This is especially important with dogs that might be otherwise somewhat nervy.

Here are some photos of me and Bijou working his first proection session, NOT PERFECT but eventually calmly holding the bite-wurst in the presence of the helper. Raiser would have me place my hands differently in the "Calm Praise" photo, but Bij had been holding the toy for quite awhile, just about ready to cary it back to the van. I can't find my pix of demonstrating absolute correct technique with Helmut and Portia in Atlanta.
Please don't pick the work apart. This is not a full series of pix taken in sequence, first grips not perfect by any means! :-(
Some dogs, like T, will not hold dead prey no matter what we do. Fight's over, that's that. He drops it and guards it till I pick it up and kick it or pick it up and calmly return it to the helper so we can start again.

Prey Attraction

Barking!

Intentional Miss- for drive building & targetting

First bite

First Little fight

[insert missing pix of 2-handed regrip work here]

First Carry

Calm praise.

Finished- Headed "home" with the prey

One last look back

Hope this helps.
SS

by Held on 11 March 2009 - 15:03

Yoy know dog training and dogs are a very intersesting subject because no one knows for sure anything for the mos part.
yes we know some things and the rest is just estimated guess.things are never blk and white.we talk about head shaking killing the prey but most predatores that i have seen in documentries like lions and tigeres and hyienas they ususally kill by suffocating.and usually one deep bite like a prey bite on the sleeve in the shutzhund.but have seen dogs fighting once they grab they try to shake the hell out of their opponent.so are they killing a prey or are they trying to kill the enemy.Anyways, have fun with your puppy usually like some one else said earlier some puppies would whinne if you put too much stress like not lettinf the puppy win faet enough,timiming is every thing.some dogs are extremely vocal and the best thing you van do is when you let the puppy win the prey make sure you only do it the minute he stops whinning and belive me he will and just like every thing else we teach that if you show proper behaviour good things happen.you will be amazed at what your dog can learn if you teach it the right way.just have fun play the game and do not over do it. have a nice one.

by ShelleyR on 11 March 2009 - 16:03

most predatores that i have seen in documentries like lions and tigeres and hyienas they ususally kill by suffocating.

EXCELLENT POINTS HELD!

by Held on 11 March 2009 - 17:03

Thanks for the kind comment Shelley.

by Bob McKown on 11 March 2009 - 17:03

Thats only prey larger then them selfs and wolfs when hunting in a pack tend to hock there prey to brink it down then the pack moves in on the kill. small prey is generally snatched and shakin till dead then consumed,

There are so many different thoughts to training we all have to find our desire and train to that goal, If it were easy everyone would be doing it.

by ShelleyR on 11 March 2009 - 17:03

Most of my dogs will shake REAL prey dead. This is much discouraged on the training field. Sometimes we can train/condition it all out, sometimes we just eat some points.
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by cledford on 11 March 2009 - 17:03

I continue to be amazed at this topic and believe a number of dogs have been confused, if not downright screwed-up over this whole issue and all the focus of breaking the habit. Never ONCE in a SchH trial is a sleeve slipped - therefore, even if prey shaking was for sure negatively regarded issue, there is no opportunity for it to be expressed or judged in a trial. So why all the fuss? As I've stated before, Helmut Raiser (in his book) admires the quality and likes to see it in dogs. I'm sure he knows more than any of us ever will about the breed, the sport and SchH specific protection work. Personally, if a dog has a full, firm grip I don't care if it head shakes while carrying the sleeve. In fact the same dog (from a sport perspective) probably has over the top ball drive, awesome retrieves, flashy OB and strong tracking drive.

Next, vocalizing a nerve issue? Are you kidding? I'm not suggesting that it isn't annoying or something to be discouraged, however I haven't met a dog yet that vocalized that had a nerve issue. Maybe balanced towards prey – but nothing wrong with them and again, from a sport perspective, I’ve seen many good dogs that were vocal vs. the “strong silent type.” To be specific, I'm referring to vocalizing OFF the sleeve. When on it, yeah, that ain't a good thing....

-Calvin

by Bob McKown on 11 March 2009 - 17:03

I agree, in a trial they never get the chance to freely shake the sleeve, but i,ve seen during the drives the dog shake the sleeve while fighting the helper and most judges have remarked positivly after there is a clean out.

by Bob McKown on 11 March 2009 - 17:03

By the way it,s nice to have a thread where folks express there opinions with out jumping down the throat of opposing view points...needs to happen more here!

by Get A Real Dog on 12 March 2009 - 01:03

I thought we were talking about head shaking while on the grip?

Either way, I don't mind it but like I said before, I have seen it get out of hand.

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