This is a placeholder text
Group text
by justcurious on 28 January 2009 - 16:01
Then 8 in, 8 out, etc, till you are to the animal, at which point you can either start the same cycling process to go around/behind the animal, or you can back up and change a variable - such as the animal being used as a distraction, the quality or speed of motion, added distractions. At all times, the trainer handling the "problem" or distraction, should be reading the animal being trained. The object is to move the animal forward as quickly as possible without ever letting him break his training/focus/calmness. If the animal being trained starts to show the first sign of excitation, the 2nd trainer, stops dead in his tracks, and then slowly removes the "problem". This makes it so by getting excited, the animal being trained loses the adrenalizing stimulus - so if he likes it (as in likes the catharsis of aggression) he loses out by starting to show any interest in the adrenalizing stimulus, or indeed, any change in behavior at all.
Meanwhile, the trainer handling the animal working on developing coping skills, stands or sits with the dog, giving the command for the conditioned relaxation (after a sit or down perhaps), and then supplies intermediate bridges peppered with terminal bridges at the closest point, and the end of the cycle. The animal being trained will usually quickly start to focus on the face of the trainer, and to look away from the approaching distraction. That is a desired sign. It shows that the dog is planning to resist temptation, and so is trying to avoid temptation.
This process, when done correctly, is extremely boring to watch. It looks like nothing is happening. However, it brings rapid, lasting results.
It is important to change only one aspect of the distraction at a time. The "rest" is very important. The conditioned relaxation is very important. The intermediate bridging is very important. I can post directions for teaching intermediate bridges, if people are interested. It takes less than five minutes. The predictability of the cycles and the rests seems to help the animals hold out till the end of the trial. Quickly, things progress to the point that events can be totally random.
I am making a video showing this process with a dog aggressive dog, but it is not ready yet.
If you are working on something that is not portable, like getting an animal to change his perception of going into the water, you can start by bringing a bit of water to the animal, but you can also take the animal to the beach, go out of reach of the water, and cycle in and out with the dog, going toward and then away from the water, bridging at the step closest in and the step closest out, and intermediate bridging for all the appropriate demeanor in between.
If you are teaching an animal to voluntarily stand for blood collection, first the syringe, and later the needle, and finally the syringe with the needle, make the cycles in and out. (by the way, we always tell the animal what is coming, so he can mentally prepare for the challenge - we start to see tangible evidence that he is doing this).
If you are teaching an animal not to grab food, the hand with the apparently available food makes the cycles in and out - AND disappears if the animal breaks his concentration on the trainer. ...
by justcurious on 28 January 2009 - 16:01
We then extrapolate to teach the animal to do behaviors in the presence of food, ignoring it. (I work a group of horses with the bucket of food sitting on the ground amidst everything, and the horses act like they do not realize it is there, but they are acutely aware of the food's presence.
In any case, this is an extremely useful tool, and I hope that this time I have given enough information that others can put it to work.
Please feel free to contact me personally if you want more information on any of the things I have introduced here.
Best,
Kayce
by ocoey on 28 January 2009 - 21:01
Thanks for taking the time to post that Justcurious. I have the course matterial (and was instructed during the course), I understand it and did not confuse 'perception modification' with massage. I just think there are easier, more effective ways to acheive the same results. If the methods work for you more power to you!
by justcurious on 28 January 2009 - 22:01
so if you have something that works please post it.by ocoey on 28 January 2009 - 23:01
Sorry I'm not trying to play cloak and dagger with you Justcurious. I am by no means an instructor, nor do I have a flashy CV. I have no fancy tricks of my own I'm afraid. I’m just not a big fan of blanket methods. We had not been speaking of a specific situation but I’ll try to indulge by using an example......The PM method is used on any dog that acts out inappropriately. Kayce suggested having my friend's male aggressive dog lay on his side in an unfamiliar room full of strange dogs and handlers. If that alone does not cause unrequired stress I’d be very surprised.
The purpose of laying the dog out is to calmed him with massage. Every time the dog acknowledged (IE moved his eyes or head to look) a movement introduced around him he was deemed to be reactive and the process was started again. First, how do we know the dog doesn’t think he is being praised for acknowledging the movement? Even if the dog does figure out that the goal is to ignore the movement we have no idea what the dog is thinking. Anxiety, anger, aggression or fear are all possibilities, so just what are we rewarding with the massage? And my gosh, I sure don't want my GSD to become oblivious to the rest of the world. Why would I go to the trouble of forcing a working line dog (or another for that matter) to essentially submit, full stop? Why doesn’t matter.
After using PM it is possible that next time the dog sees another unfamiliar dog he may think, crap my person is going to make me submit. More stress!!! Why not teach the dog to focus on you and avoid the whole situation? Stop the posturing WAY before it becomes a problem by giving a previously well conditioned command. Sure Kayce suggests slowly moving closer to the distraction or bringing the distraction closer. Either way that is by no means her brain child, it is just systematic desensitization. Kohler called it ‘proofing’, others call it ‘distraction training’ or ‘polishing’. Whatever, same thing. I’ll give you that Kayce also suggests training commands in conjunction with the PM but I fail to see the benefit of the PM. I say save the massage for the home.
by justcurious on 29 January 2009 - 01:01
and are as many approaches to solving problems as there are trainers willing to help correct them. for example when dealing with on-leash dog aggression instead of "pm" trainer/behaviorist trish king might suggest "abandoment" to get the dog to stop focusing on other dogs, which has worked well for some dogs but not all. trish's method is just like kayce's method of pm - no miracle cure just another tool to have on hand if you so choose. like eisenmann says you've got to see the method as a valid theory before you can have any hope of using it with true success. if pm or any other method is not valid in your eyes there's no point wasting your time learning it. i don't think there will ever be the quick cure. all methods need to be 'worked'; and i don't think all methods work for all dogs and all people. best thing to do is just keep looking until you find something that make sense to both you and your dog(s) - there are after all lots of methods to choose from
by justcurious on 10 February 2009 - 17:02
Let me know what you think of Ivan!- sunsilver
well we bought all 3 of ivan's dvd - vol 1: clear communication; vol 2: the game & vol 3: the retrieve. i've watched the first 2 and really enjoyed his technique, and learned a lot:)) i will definitely be watching them again - lots of good mind bending info:)) anyway if you are considering buying any you really need to get at least the first 2. the 1st dvd lays the foundation - the theory and principles behind the method, how it is utilized including applying it to solving problems. the 2nd dvd teaches the techniques of "the game", the rules that must be followed, and just what is really being taught - not only obedience but other important skills like self-control.
ivan's background is in compulsive methods so he discusses why he does not favor them. he has developed his own technique which employs techniques developed by exotic animals trainer (this is what kayce cover is). however ivan's method is not purely what i believe he calls, "inducive" (like clicker training and other purely "positive" methods). he also explains why he chose a combination approach in lieu of either strict compulsive or inducive. if you were to imagine a line with one end being pure compulsive and with pure inducive on the other ivan would fall well on the inducive side though he is not an extremist in any way -imo anyway:))
"obedience w/o conflict" is reward-based and does use some food lures but only in the beginning while teaching the basic commands. his reason is that force creates resistance and resistance inhibits learning so will ultimately interfere with the dogs training. once "the game" in taught, the cooperative play becomes the reward so there is no need to use food rewards (this is not so different from dunbar). i think it's important to note that even though a toy is used in the game, the toy is not the reward - the interaction of the game play between the dog and handler is the reward.
in addition to the standard specific commands, ivan's method employs 4 core cues including a terminal bridge (tb) like clicker trainer etc, an intermediate bridge (ib) like SATS etc., and he adds a "no" cue which is not at all punitive but is used solely to inform the dog s/he is moving off target and will not receive a reward unless s/he changes his action. the 4th is "out" a "drop it" command taught via toy exchange to build trust between the dog and the handler.
so in the language of operant conditioning (as i understand it) his primary techniques fall under +R (positive reward) & -P (negative punishment) i.e. rewards are give when desired behavior increases, and the opportunity for reward is removed when desired behavior decreases or is not shown. he also uses a technique called "raising the criterion" basically as the dog improves you 'up the bar' by asking the dog to perform the command a bit faster or straighter etc.
there are many cool aspects to this method. one is that mistakes are not punished but instead the dog is continually given new opportunities to correct his/her mistakes by simply starting up "the game" again. another very interesting point is how he sees skills as either passive or active. any skill that requires the dog to change motion is active, so this would include 'sit; and 'down'. while skills like 'sit stay' and 'heel' are seen as passive. he has a unique (well unique to me anyway:) way of teaching sit, down and the stays. con't ...
by justcurious on 10 February 2009 - 17:02
the game is very fun for both but it also very serious and structured. there are very specific rules for both dog and handler. this method builds trust and authority which yields not only obedience but willingness and enthusiasm in the dog. it can/will also solidify the bond between dog and handler and set the handler up as the clear leader leaving to dog with no doubts that his/her job is to follow directions given by the handler and the handler alone. now this dvd set is really geared toward competitive obedience, which is something i don't see myself doing, but i can see how i could easily adapt it to suit my needs, which fall into the service dog arena. - hth
by Sunsilver on 10 February 2009 - 17:02
BTW, speaking of service dogs, did you see the video of the 13 week old puppy retrieving the cordless phone for its hard of hearing owner?
THIRTEEN WEEKS!!!
Don't have time to search the link but it's on the database under "Tracking by ear"
by justcurious on 11 February 2009 - 00:02
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top