Puppy and training, begginers mistake. - Page 4

Nice pup, but I never watched the first video that was linked here.  I don't see any signs of compulsion, but I stand by my original statement and  would definetely back off the obedience if this is to be a schutzhund sport dog even though everything has been motivational because it's not just  compulsion that creates problems, in my opinion.  From what I have seen, dogs that have too much ob put on them too early, in the long run,  end up with flat, often robotic obedience, and look to the handler too often in other phases (ESPECIALLY dogs who's owners have no intention of ever using anything but motivational methods).  The fact that people who use only motivational methods does not make a difference, it is still  pressure, and it is possible to easily do too much too soon.

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Thank you sueincc

She only being trained for the 1 phase, and crossed with AKC OB Competition style.
I understand what you are saying, about the robotic obedience.
But this is were the points are, in both SchH OB & AKC OB if you are looking for a HIT in OB.
 

Deejays Owner:  I understand what you are saying, however; a flat and robotic performance in schutzhund  will not put anyone on the podium, not in A, B or C, at least not in most  trials.......think "malinois".    Perhaps we have different ideas of what flat and robotic is, I think this often happens on the internet when we only have the written word, no voice inflection, etc..  Also, it's not just the obedience that suffers.

I don't remember a time when schutzhund judges were ever looking for "fearsome biting animals", from day 1 in the sport  I was taught that  schutzhund has always been about obedience (although I have only been around since 1981), maybe you are referring to a time before?   As far as I'm concerned and what works for me is a little bit of obedience  (necessary) just VERY little.    As far as "remedial lessons", with dogs who start formal obedience later, I have seen no evidence of this, with my own dogs or anyone elses.  That is more an issue of bad training in the first place, nothing to do with at what age the dog was trained.  I can easily handle a wild pup, and still be the boss because the games go as far as I say they go, and really, I would rather spend hours teaching my pup to play with me rather than  spend hours coaxing a pup into doing something over and over when it will take me less than 1/4 of the time to teach a young dog to do the same thing only better.   Except I have never seen a dog once pressured into robotic and flat obedience EVER recover to the point they can become top dogs in the sport, just as dogs can become so focused on their handler they are looking to them constantly when they should be watching the helper.

Shelley, your point #4 really gave me something to think about. Bella is either spending her time with a 4 yr old make she is afaid of (he roughed her up shortly after she arrived)  or an 8 yr old male she sees as her protector. (The 8 yr old went after the 4 yr old when he went after Bella.) For her to gain the confidence she needs, she shouldn't be with either male right now. The breeder suggested something similar, it just didn't sink in.

I DO teach house manners, but outside the confines of this house my youngsters are WILD until they are solid on the helper. I have a hell of a time getting collars on my young dogs, and don't have many wardrobe items sans muddy paw print stains. Crate training occurs on the road. I have a solid rule here: Puppies: don't leave home without at least one! They have a lot of road-warrior experience by the time they hit 3 mos.

I do formal obedience last, just a little cookie-stuff to imprint when they are little. Pups are seperated into their own kennels early, and only kenneled next to "kind" older dogs. I do let my pup run free with my kindly stud dog, but he doesn't dominate them, just imprints his confidence and reasonable responses to outside events/stimulus into their patterns of behavior. I NEVER let a puppy run with an older female, not even their own mother after about 7 weeks of age. They don't call them btches for nothing!  (Enter kindly stud dog as babysitter, often to his chagrin)  One negative experience with a rough dog can ruin a puppy for life as far as work and socialization goes.

Also: Dog parks are OUT in my book. Every experience my puppy gets from the day I get it is completely contrived, specifically planned and considered to build and maintain confidence in said puppy. I even take them into the vet's exam room with my older male so they can see his blaze (sp?) attitude and composure. My vet is certain I am out of my mind, but she is tolerant of my insistance and  the tech's are fascinated and appreciate the lack of stress incontinence on the floor and  exam tables when I leave.

Raising Schutzhund puppies is an ART. BSP winner Walter Kreipl once devoted an entire seminar evening to the subject. (wish I could find my notes!)

SS

I'd like to hear Shelley & sueincc opinion on this........

www.grammozis.de/Freeheeling.htm

This kennel needs no introduction in the working world - they are always working dogs at the highest levels in Europe, so they know what they are talking about.

I LOVE that site, it's bookmarked as one of my "favorites" on my computer, and I frequently link it to people.   Although the article is unfinished, I believe they talk about only working the little ones no more than a couple of minutes a day, and it's all about correct position, no recalls, sits, downs, stands, just correct position.

I would love to hear others opinion of that site.  I'm sure there are many who have participated on this thread that are very familiar with it too.