A PPD Question - Page 4

EF, I would also like to address your statement ="... but it is when SCH people try to inform people about PSD, PPD and so on is when things get messed up. I am not saying that you are not good at sch but how much do you really understand about PPD, and PSD training and so on. I have been contacted by more people with dogs that are SCH titled that got scammed than you realize. See people hid behind the titles of SCH in order to sell a product that is miss-represented"

First of all this is not about me or about Schutzhund or police dogs. The thread was started specifically about PPD dogs. Secondly I am constantly amazed and appalled by the level of conning and scamming that goes on in the dog world and especially in the GSD world. I'm equally amazed and apalled that people don't use the gray matter that God gave them to apply some critical thinking to purchases that involve thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars and a living creature that will be your responsiblity ( oh that's right no one uses that word anymore)  for the next 10 to 12 years.

I have seen *hitty Police dogs and *hitty police dog handlers. Thank God I have also seen some great ones. I personally find it frustrating that people in our breed seem to think that police work is a place to dump the undesirable,uncontrollable, untrainable, badly trained, defective or just plain couldn't sell it dog when in fact it should be the best dogs going for that work. I do believe departments need to take some responsiblity in that many are willing to deal with a broker that throws such dogs at them with the promise "if it doesn't work out we'll give you another". I personally know a new young K9 officer that had FOUR dogs in less than a year before they finally got one that could do the work and live in normal society. Often times K9 units are managed by officers who are not dog people, have no knowledge of dogs and how that relates to the departments needs and are unwilling to break a sweat and actually learn. Is it right they get conned and scammed - no but they also have a hand in it.  They could educate themselves.

This is also true about Sch owners. Yes once again I do realize that people get scammed every day - sad to say. But usually what I see is someone that did not do their homework , and is either motivated by greed or has more money than brains and does NOT use the gray matter God gave them. They do not educate themselves and visit clubs and trials and breeders and trainers and read books and watch videos. They do NOT take their time. They want it today not a year from today. The tools are there for them to be able to educate themselves and find a reputable person but they don't. Some people just have to learn in the school of hard knocks.

The truth however is that whole scenario becomes much more difficult for someone who is interested ( or thinks they should be) in a PPD. As I noted in the OP there "seems to be a lot of hype, no standardization about what constitutes training and/or a trained dog, inflated prices and world view" which leads us to John's ongoing question of what a PPD3 is.

So John, Here is the answer to your question. A PPD3 dog ( as EF well knows but has not stated) is what the dog is. No more no less. If you are lucky he is what the seller represents him to be. Now most of the PPD sites I have visited do NOT actually state what constitues their level 1,2,3 dog or family protection dog or executive level protection dog.  They just promise that nothing bad will ever happen to your family while you have the dog without giving many specifics about how this will be done ( and as noted above is it really necessary).

Some sites do however list the skills their PPD dogs at different levels have mastered.  I thought you might find some of them interesting. This is from one site's Level 1 skills

• The dog will be able to operate on slick floors and show no signs of avoidance
• The dog will negotiate stairs with agility and ease
• The dog will be able to climb an open staircase up to 4 stories tall and come down without going into avoidance
• The dog will be placed in a gunfire situation with progressing stages starting at 50 yards and coming closer. The dog should show no signs of being gun shy or become aggressive to the handler as the aggressor comes closer
• The dog will be able to perform obedience in heavy traffic to evaluate their focus and abilities to operate in stressful conditions  Level I Personal Protection Dog will have very good bite mechanics, which include a full mouth, hard, bite. The dog will be able to bite and negotiate a bite suit, to make leg to arm, arm to underarm, and back to front transfers. This dog will demonstrate control with a clear head when there is an engagement to the helper or aggressor. The dog will release the bite when the aggressor surrenders or the fight ends on command. The dog will go into a bark-and-hold, which will keep the aggressor from acting out further. controls in place to be able to stop the dog when sent on an aggressor. The dog will release on command from the bite. The dog will have recall to the handler when appropriate. ...stopping power; able to stop an intruder, attacker, or abductor, whether on the bite or by his presence when he is on guard.
•  
• And this was from another site "The training for our Level IV executive personal protection dog is designed for executives who need a high level of security. The dog offers all the capabilities of the Level III dog, but can learn custom abilities for your lifestyle, including training in your chosen language, relieving itself on command in a selected area of your yard, and even holding a "down-stay" under a desk during distractions."

Now all I can say is the first 4 skills are something all my PET dogs do. The next 2 my SchH dog would have no problem with. Plus I really loved the Level IV crap. Once again those are skills my PET dogs have. EF The problem is your industry opens itself up to criticism because there is no standardization Thus making it very difficult for the buyer to educate themselves and sorry when I see such falderall I will be sacrastic. Not being sarcastic at all, I do commend you for at least being one of the ones that puts up on their site how they define the levels.  However for me I would like to see a bit more specificity than "The level three dog will come with incredible obedience and protection skills. ".

Is not the whole dog training world GREY!!  Each trainer has his/her own abilities so it takes the buyer to be educated and know what they are looking at. If someone will not educate themselves and buy a dog at the drop of a hat is that the trainers fault??

SCH/PPD/PSD ect are all just as crooked as the next it just takes people to educate themselves.

If we would have buyers educated I  would say that EF would be selling multiple dogs everyday, as I have seen a demo he put on and brought out 5 different dogs that were just AWSOME!!

I apologize for not fully reading the entire thread, but I wanted to answer a few questions.

Someone asked whether it is good to train a dog to go for the weapon.  I rarely do this.  I train my dogs to run for shelter.  As of late, I have been working on getting the dogs to call 911.  I think it is alot safer for them!

My second answer is to the general question of PPDs in general.  All of these "companies" out there are providing a service to the uneducated.  Level 1, level 2, level 3, Executive PPD, Estate PPD, etc.   Who gives a rat's ass?  If the people that bought these dogs were a tiny bit educated, they would know that none of this is needed.  Honestly, how many people out there really need this type of dog?  Here are some tips for those that do:

1.  Move out of the projects.

2.  Stop going to the hood at night.  Buy your crack during the day.

3.  Call ADT and buy a gun.

4.  Never let your bookie know your address.

5.  Never take a loan out with the Mafia unless you know you can pay it off immediately.

6.  Be nicer to people and they wont want to kick your ass.

To me, most of the people that buy these dogs are trying to fullfill a shortcoming.  No pun intended.  It's kinda like buying a Leader dog when you have 20/20.

Don,

I dissagree and not just because I am a PPD trainer. This is the reasons why people in many states are not allowed to carry guns, people cannot afford full time body guards. Also their are a lot of people that feel safer when they go jogging whether at night or in the morning with a trained GSD. Now yes do people need some of the elite,executive or covert  type of dogs no.

VFK,

I am now glad that you chose me for this post because I have actually learned things from this. For example I have learned how little people actually know about a good PPD.  My advice to people looking for a PPD is call the trainers and find out exactly what you are getting for your money whether it is $1000 or $25000.  Then have the trainer show you what the dog can do.

I do have a question (yes I know the answer) what does the word SCHUTZHUND mean?

The reson why I ask is because we ar talking about how PPD training is a scam and so on. But does that word not mean Protection Dog, and is that sport not soppose to be a test for breedability in the GSD world. So by all rights a sch3 dog should be a protection dog correct!!!!!!! But most of you say that it is just a sport!!! Then maybe the name of the sport should be changed!!!!  I have seen many countless GSD get their sch3 while the judge was sipping on a cocktail in the bar. I have sch3 dogs come of the bite and not reengage the helper, and these dogs are being bred and bragged about because they have the sch3 title.

I am going to close this by sying if you are in the market for a PPD do your homework and call me, If you want an even more expensive sch dog call someone else. But whoever you call get all the information you need to make a responsible choice. I am always willing to take calls regarding this issue. Thanks again Dennis, Eisen Faust Kennel. 414-324-4996

Dennis,

I think you have super dogs!  Of course I might be a little biased.....LOL!!

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

lines are crossed all the time, in all honesty, its not much different between show dogs that work and working dogs that can show.  now we are talking about two "types" of working dogs.

some schutzhund dogs would make really good police or protection dogs.  i have one.  he is a real a**hole to work for schutzhund.  have had several people (including a police k9 trainer) tell me the dog would be better off as a police dog.  but im not an officer, and im not selling my dog.

im sure the same could be said about some ppd dogs.  maybe they would be better on the schutzhund field and not on the couch. 

schutzhund does mean "protection dog" ,  but then again that phrase was coined when it was a "true" evaluation of a dog, and decided if the dog was used for breeding or not.  now it is a sport.  there are dogs being bred and trained soley for the sport, and there are others that are being breed for the ulitarian purpose the dog was ment to be.  once again we are forced to educate ourselves.   do you want a high scoring dog that wouldnt protect you,  or a passing dog that has the nerve to really stand up and fight.  i will take the second (even though i have owned the first)

VKF,  exactly!

Don,  only 6?  i was hoping for at least 10.   to funny and way too true.

john