GSD FCI and AKC Breed Standard Comparison Chart - Page 4

Did someone mention Fred Lanting.

On Nov. 5, 2009,  Fred (a retired SV Judge) handeled my V rated (Germany and the U.S.) KKL1 bitch to an Open class win and reserve winners bitch at the Huntsville Kennel Club show. 

This was an AKC all breed show, judged by AKC judges under the AKC standard. My bitch placed pretty well. 

As a matter of fact, I will ask Fred to write an article on his impressions of his return to AKC after many years of exile.

Rik

 Rik

Yes I mentioned Fred Lanting, in connection with the topic of this thread.  This thread is about the supposed lack of differences between the two standards.  Apparently Fred Lanting also feels there are major problems with the AKC GSDCA standard - at least according to the article he wrote which  I linked.

Its not about standards, its about Judges, Breeders, and Money, which is in all organizations. I am by no means a supporter of GSDCA, but if it was the standard that was the problem then there would be no significant difference between European showlines and workinglines since they are under the same STANDARD and require the same PERFORMANCE elements. Standards as the reason for shunning WDA is nothing more than smokescreen or disingenuous. The difference in European show/workinglines is so significant that the "95% of the top working/show breeders will not breed to the other type. How is this possible if they are under the same FCI standard....more importantly which one adhers to the standard???...you can't have it both ways! USA supporters should just say the truth and that is the new amendment is initiated to retaliate against WDA for a variety of reasons that deal with future issues about the breed internationally. the fact that SV is recognizing the WDA's progress as positive show its not really about the "standard". Call a spade a spade and quit the double talk!JMO

Bob-

I am not saying anyone is right - and my PERSONAL opinion of the whole mess is that rules are for the dishonest people.  Like many of the laws, statutues in everyday life, its for the rule breakers, not the honest people.

Honestly, I don't know how you ever control any of it.  SV has their own problems. I don't like the looks etc. of an American GSD anymore than you do, BUT, what police are going to hit people and dogs over the heads and stop it.  Its a dog organization with about 5000 members - size of a village - so I don't forsee any enforcement by anyone.  It boils down to the individuals - just look at the AKC standard and can you match it up with the American dogs?  No. 

We can agree to go RSV2000 and have to present each litter to a breed warden, not for tattoos, but to be tested for workability etc. and if they do not test out, they don't get registered.  I can see that going over real well with all the people that live off of litter sales.  There would be a mass exodus back to AKC with no restrictions.

I agree EVERYONE who does not breed for workability and conformation that supports that should be taken to task - how you do it I have no idea because it depends on people doing what is best for something else than their own personal gain, and that is a societal problem not indiginous to the GSD people.  That was the purpose of posting the comparison - its not the standard causing the problem, its people.

Now it's not about standards???   Excuse me, but what was the title and topic of this thread?  Something about  whether or not there are significant differences between the FCI and AKC GSDCA breed standards for German Shepherd Dogs.   People are professing there is no difference in the standards but if there is, it doesn't matter because that's not the problem.....now there's some fancy double talk!

AKC GSDCA feels their standard is the one standard of excellence the GSD is to be judged by and requires it's members support that standard.  I am a nobody, but I do believe Fred Lanting does garner some respect within the community, and according to Fred Lanting's article, there are important differences in the standards and furthermore, he doubts AKC GSDCA will ever conform to the FCI standard.  WDA is a part of  GSDCA.  I see double standards as a big problem. 

There are many problems on many levels with AKC GSDCA,  including the standard, the judging, the breeders, the list is long.  I don't think making excuses/rationalizing/minimizing  for those who not only  turned the GSD into an ASS, but think it's a really good thing, and have absolutely no intention of changing, is in the  best interest of the GSD,  though it is in the best interest of the ASS.  

Sue,

To put it in another perspective (no disrespect intended), do you think that your avatar dog closely conforms (in appearance and structure) to the FCI breed standard--the same one whereby Vegas is judged VA-1?

Sue, this has not been a thread about right and wrong on standards, never was - it was a thread about how similar almost word for word in over 90% of both standards were the same.  It also points out that really very few dogs no matter what organization you belong to, even 5 like I do (USA, WDA, GSDCA, SV and SAS)  that the dogs as PRODUCED are so divergent.  Saying that the standard produces the dog is what I was showing to be a nonsensical argument. 

Its not the standards causing variances from the sublime to the ridiculous,  its the breeders, judges who do not adhere to standards and bottomline lack of enforcement and then just thow in personal preferences and people making money off of litters. 

Louise is correct, as the BSZ dogs are judged according to the standard, now just where to working lines get placed and where if you and I took our working lines, where would they place?  And that's the SV FCI standard.  This is the first year a working dog group has been been in the Progeny group - Javir - do you understand what an acheivment that was?  No offense to people who have the showlines, but which dog would you take Javir or Vegas? Depends on if you want to show or trial.  Ah, now how can two dogs bred under the FCI standards be so divergent?

Nobody is minimizing the physical differnces in the dogs and especially the differenences that cause problems in the breed.  I have had working line dogs and showline dogs that were KKl1 V rated in Germany.  Were they truly to the SV standard?  I personally like the looks of your dog.  But is he/she KKL1 what rating and where did he/she get the titles?  Is he/she 100% in tune with the FCI Standard - (remember not picking on you, but it is a nice photo that all can see as an example).  and not asking you to answer this, its purely rhetorical.

Again there is a wide variance on the awarding of KKl and show ratings - just depends on who you get. 

To me it was amazing to see that laid side by side there really was no substancial differences in the Standards, that the AKC one was from the SV in 1978 with some blah blah added and that certainly AKC GSD fanciers's dogs that we in our limited contact see, certainly do not comport with their own standard.  Hope I have made that a little clearer. 

PS - WDA is the organziation by which GSDCA carries out the requirements of the SV/WUSV due to AKC for many years not allowing biting dog sports.  WDA goes soley by SV Standards - if not SV judges would not be judging at WDA events. 

Kim:

         I,m a nobody, But to me these are the most important lines from the begining of the standard to the end of the standard these 2 lines sum up all the bull shit of showline dogs the interpitaion of the standard  and where the working dog that the standard has gone to.

The German Shepherd Dog must be even in temperament, well balanced, self assured, totally unself-conscious and, except when provoked, totally good natured. Added to that he must be attentive and easily trained. He must possess courage, combativity and toughness, so as to be a suitable companion, watch, guard, working and herding dog.

Any departure from the above described breed characteristics which influence working ability.

For no other reason there hasent been a good representation of this for some time in the judges determination.