Don't Pet My Puppy...confused? - Page 4

Zep...I completely understand what you are saying, I am not arguing with you. My breed is the Malinois, I have no idea how the two boards here got mixed together, but, be that as it may, I want a dog that I can train, that is my primary pleasure in owning a dog, and a dog that can work daily. What I state here is what has worked for me in the last 30 plus years. I like a dog that is neutrally social with humans as well as animals. If you, I dont mean YOU in particular, have a dog that needs that type of exposure and socialization with people, by all means, do it, I just happen to select dogs that dont.
As far as sport, being born and raised in Europe, I was brought up a little different and I look at things from a different point of view, I need and must have a dog that will work in the real every day world. Again, the best of luck to you and your dog in whatever endeavor you decide to get involved in.

HiredDog,

I know you are not arguing with me. I asked for information and got plenty.

I've learned both methods are viable and it comes down to what the owner wants their dog to be.

I'm going to go the overly social dog route as that is what the club expects from me at this point in their training. Who knows, that may change and I may go the other way and send it off to brynjulf to turn it back into a little monster :)

Thanks Everyone, very different opinions that all make some sense.

Zep--

 A confident, well socialized dog makes a better pet, companion, sport dog and protective family dog.  I think socializing your dog and exposing him to as many different people and places is very beneficial. 

Agree totally.

I do not let strange dogs near a pup, especially larger dogs.

Agree again.  Excellent advice. 

brynjulf...I have several breeders who send shy puppies to me for my "little monster" program. 

Could you elaborate on your program ?   There is a young GSD pup at my GSD girl's obedience school who is VERY shy and certainly could benefit from some serious help with that.
 

I'd like to hear more about the "Monster Dog Program" as when doing rescue the hardest dogs to rehabilitate are the shy ones that have also had trauma... turning a dog like that around is the most difficult.  

Hireddog, addressed this briefly, don't you think socialization needs vary with the dog?  None of my dogs react to strangers and all of them are good in crowds etc.. but two that are stranger neutral to friendly (unless the person is acting hinky) and the third acts neutral but really he'd love to bite.  He does not react without my permission, but he sure wants to.  I have been told maybe let strangers feed him, but really, I don't think that is going to change his nature.  He is not shy (the opposite really) but he just does not like people outside the pack.  He does not growl or show hackles and I really think if I allow people to pat him he would only be barely tolerating it.  Not sure if I ought to do anything about it or if there is anything I should do about it since he can go in crowds and not be reactive. I think it is just their different personalities and since they are all neutral acting in crowds, not sure if I can ask for more.  All of them were socialized a lot when young but they are quite different in their feeling about outsiders even if their outward reaction is the same (ignore them).

I can change how they act but I haven't really been able to change their inner desire. 

Hunger,
You are absolutely correct that you can change or modify a dog's behavior, but not it's nature or genetics.  Do you have any need for your dog to be super social?  If your dog is fine in crowds and is neutral to people what else do you need?  I personally do not like letting strangers feed my dog.  If there was a need to rehabilitate the dog and socialize it around people then I may have people offer food.  Friendly with the family and aloof with strangers is how many GSD's are.  My female GSD is super social and loves people and children, her goal in life was to kiss every person she saw.  She enjoyed meeting new people and is 100% trustworthy.  I would let people pet her because she really enjoys it.  My male does not appreciate strangers petting him and will let you know.  I have no need to have strangers pet him and do not allow it.  He is a very stable, strong confident dog that was also well socialized.  He doesn't enjoy strangers coming up to him and "messing with his hair."  He is super affectionate with family members but that is it.  I have had him in crowds of thousands of people at Nationally televised Football games and he is neutral and completely trustworthy.  However, I am hyper vigilante for the people that want to "Hug" the Police dog and the dad who tells his 5 year old to "go run up and pet the Police dog." 

I do have a need for my dog to be social and approachable with the other K-9 handlers.  We will socialize our dogs with members of our unit and the SWAT team guys, it pretty much ends there.  As long as they are comfortable with each other that is all we really need.   

Your dogs temperaments sound great to me.

Jim

Thanks, Jim..
I really don't need him to be social outside our family.  I just also worry about the people who say, after I tell them not to touch him that,  "dogs love them" as they reach over his head, or when talking to someone as they are leaning closer, I see my dog also slightly leaning towards them and looking very happy (to bite them) and me saying as I correct w/leash that, "he is slightly leaning in as you are hoping I will let him bite you, so back off a few steps, please." and they say, "Oh no, he probably just smells my dog."  Or worse, the parent that asks me if my dogs bite and when I say yes and they are working and cannot be patted, send their screaming kids over anyway along with their loose dog.  My dogs are under enough control to not react to these things, but..I know the one really wants to bite even when he does not.  They seem to think, no matter what I say, that if the dog is calmly walking or sitting and not barking or growling that they won't bite.  I have even had stangers I don't even know tell other strangers I don't know that MY dogs WONT bite!  However, I have come to the conclusion that I can't really ask more than what they are giving, which is to listen to me, react only if allowed and ignore.  

Does anyone elses dog act completely different towards kids than adults? There could be a million people around and Cam will ignore them all. He will tolerate adults petting him, but I can tell he doesnt like it. He will move away from them, lol. I just try to explain to people he doesnt really like anyone but me. People seem offended when he ignores them and moves away from their hands. Now if someone talks to him in a coddely voice, he will growl. I dont let people talk to him. I just tell them, you can pet his back but dont talk to him. They probably think I am nuts. He will play ball with people, but there are only certain people I will let play with him. I dont need someone losing a finger, lol!

He loves kids though. Kids always have a bad habit of wanting to look right in his face. I always stop them and tell them they shouldnt do that with strange dogs. I dont worry about Cam hurting them, but thats how I got bit in the face by a strange dog when I was little. Its just not a good habit for kids to have.

Hunger,
What people don't realize is that the quiet dogs, that stare and lean forward are often the ones that will bite.  Many times the dogs with the big bark are asking people to "stay away or I may have to bite you."  My dog does not bark at people he can get to.  I have been out and dealt with many drunks or crack heads that have walked up to me screaming about some issue.  I advise them that my dog will bite them if they get to close to him and they look and say "that dog won't bite me!"  I know my dog and see him craning forward, up on his toes, staring very intensely waiting for an opportunity.  People need to realize that the quiet dogs are often the ones to watch. 

I know exactly what you mean about people approaching your dog.  Some people truly believe that every dog loves them.  Some believe that because their dog is friendly and not dog aggressive your dog must be the same way.  These people never seem to understand that not all dogs are Lassie.  We have a dog in our unit that was very friendly to me in the past and I really like this dog and I am good friends with his handler.  As it happens with most K-9's they seem to get more serious and jaded as they have more time on the street.  This particular dog is very serious, very intense and very civil.  We did our patrol certification yesterday and he was walking by a group of handlers after he finished his track.  He had a tug in his mouth and walked by the group and started to growl.  I called the dog to me and the handler brought him over, the dog was growling really seriously and louder and deeper as  went to pet him.  I could here a couple of handlers saying "I'm not touching that dog."  I grabbed the tug and started to pull and pet the dog as he growled.  After a minute the dog I released and the dog growled less.  I kept playing tug with the dog until he stopped growling and warmed up to me.  I was able to then have him lean against me and I could pet him more relaxed.  Knowing this dog I knew he would never drop his tug to bite me, unless told to by his handler.  I knew if he had the tug in his mouth and I kept some pressure on it I wouldn't get bit.  It surprised the handlers form a neighboring PD who were watching.  We need to be able to handle this dog if something happens to his handler.  A couple of years ago this handler and dog were involved in a serious shooting and the handler saved several citizens lives engaging a murderer armed with an AK-47 in the street.  The dog was put into his car after the shootout was over and the dog was highly stressed.  I had to take this dog out of the vehicle a couple of hours later.  I was fully expecting to take a "real" bite from this dog taking him out of his car.  Fortunately, the dog didn't bite me.  So I am trying to remain on good terms with this dog in case I need to handle him.

Jim


 

I fully understand the reasoning behind the "Don't Pet My Puppy rule".  However, I would say in this day and age where many younsters have never interacted with dogs nor have any clue about dogs in general, I would say you are setting yourself up for a legal liability of some kind.  If the dog somehow earns you money or the dog is in service in the military or police force, then by all means follow the "Don't Pet My Puppy rule".  If not, you should never, not under any circumstances, follow it.  I don't want to get into a bunch of legalese, but a dog not socialized to deal with todays ignorant world is at the mercy of lawyers, animal control, ignorant landowners and bureaucrats.  I don't want to lose my dogs because someone gets nipped out of thier own stupidity.  Before anyone jumps in and says "this should never happen", I say, ANYTHING can happen.  I say, best to prepare your dog for being greeted by folks who haven't a clue about dogs.  I'll give the best personal example I have:

I had to move for work, no if's, and's or but's about it.  I owned my own home, but my employer transferred me to a non-commutable location.  The salary was good and so was the company, so I choose to move.  I was able to rent my place out, but at the same time had to find another place to rent, quickly.  Every landlord I saw wanted to view and pet the dogs I owned.  How would the "Don't Pet My Puppy rule" have gone over in these situations?  Half the landlords that wanted to see the dogs had never owned or trained dogs in thier entire life (they did own cats etc, so did not discriminate on pet type).  I didn't want to rent from these guys, but going to where paid work was offered was the priority.  I'm not going to give up my dogs or live out of my car, so the only thing left is to prepare the dog to meet and greet the "least dog knowledgable person on earth".  You never know whom that might be or what power they have over your life.  Best to let the dogs get to know these types of people BEFORE they get in the way, because you never know when and how your life will be changed.  Inflexible dogs will fare as well today, as inflexible employees have in the USA workplace.  Not good at all!