Longcoats and breeding - Page 4

My personal opinion would be to not repeat breedings that produced long coats. I don't want long coats and I don't want to produce them. Many other studs to pair with a bitch, rather than to continue making the same flaws. Would you keep breeding a pair that produced bad hips or blue eyes? I hope not, you go back to the drawing board and try again. 

Yes this is America though and to each his own.

I would be willing to think our dogs really think we are arrogant. There are people that live to fulfill an artificial standard, they will live and die by that standard. There are people that have no standards at all. First off it is very apparent that coat type is not determined on one allele, it is multiple alleles and does not conform to simple Mendelian genetics. There is a continuum of coat types. Furthermore these coat types seem to be bundled with other traits that make the GSD what they are today, thus all of the old lines VA dogs produce coated dogs and have coated littermates. My coated GSD's look for lost and missing people. The coat protects them from brush and weeds, the coat protects them from winter weather, the coat, even when wet, insulates them like wool! The Colorado mountains are often not forgiving where short coated dogs get cold and cannot work. The change in coat preference was clearly politically and financially motivated. Diversity is the only hope for improvement for the breed.

For those wanting to eliminate the long coat genes... it is part of the foundation of this breed, the true coated GSD pulls that heritage from the genes of their wild cousins, ever look at a wolf pelt up close? Oh ya wolves are not very weather resistant

Link was the only coated GSD I've had and he seemed to be pretty insulated, he loved the cold and snow.  He'd go out and lay in the snow until it covered him and when I'd call him in he'd shake it off and was hardly even wet.  He did have a very thick undercoat.  Drake doesn't seem bothered by weather either and seems to like the cooler temps but nothing like Link, he'd have stayed outside all of the time if I'd have let him. I do have to say though that on muddy days...what a mess. One day I spent cleaning and hadn't realized it had rained lightly. Hubby came home and let him in and before I realized it he shook and I had polka dots of mud from one end of the kitchen to the other.  All I could do was laugh because the only alternative was to cry. He just stood there looking at me with those sweet eyes and I couldn't possibly have been mad.  We took him downstairs and hosed him down and I cleaned the kitchen all over again with him licking my ear as I scrubbed the floor. I only wish I could have one more mud bath from him now, miss that boy.

You are not comparing apples to apples, Max. Wolves have a weather resistant double coat with very harsh guardhairs and sufficient undercoat to protect them from the elements. You will never see a wolf surivive in a cold climate in the wild with a long, soft coat that lies flat against its body.

Arrogance has nothing to do with it. As stewards of this breed it is up to each breeder to follow the breeding guidelines/standards set down by his/her respective breed club. Both AKC and the SV DQ for long coats and longcoated GSD's cannot obtain a breed survey unless they fall under the definition of long stock hair with an undercoat. Breeding to a standard is not arrogance, it is breeding to the German standard of excellence.

As far as I know no one on this board uses their GSD's as they were originally intended, as tending dogs 24/7 duriing all seasons of the year. These dogs had to survive on their own without any human intervention other than providing them with food. Shelter was anywhere the dogs could find a place to sleep. No dog with a long soft coat and no undercoat could survive a German winter and summers would be tough on them as well.

Those who breed to and from longcoats always have all sorts of excuses for doing so. They can make great pets, I've owned one myself, and they may do OK as SAR and protection dogs, etc but they would never make is as tending dogs and isn't that the original intent of this breed? Long, soft coats with no undercoat are not weather resistent, they form ice balls between their toes and in their coats, they soak up water like a sponge and weigh down the dog, and they can freeze fast to the ground as the dog sleeps. The SV has a good reason to DQ longcoats and to deny them a breed survey - they are not correct for the breed.

Where should breeders draw the line as fas as ignoring certain aspects of the SV standard goes?  Ok to breed longcoats, then I guess it's OK to breed untitled dogs without breed surveys too? How about monorchids or dogs missing teeth or dogs with wry bites...bad temperaments....poor structure and movement? SV has established their guidelines as challenges to breeders to produce the very best they can produce and ingoring any of their requirements may not be in the best interests of the breed. Every day some one here complains over AKC's lack of requirements in order to register a litter. What good are rules if they are ignored? You just can't pick and choose the parts you  like or the parts that fit your own dogs. It's all or nothing; either breed to the SV standard or don't, but there are no valid excuses to ignore it.

The length of the coat, it's texture, and the presence or absence of undercoat is the result of modifying genes. ONE gene determines if the dog will be a longcoat. The modifiers determine how long, the texture, and the presence or absence of undercoat. It is possible to breed 2 longcoats and get variations of coat length and texture in the same litter. It may even be possible to breed 2 longcoats and get a dog that could obtain a breed survey as a long stock hair. Nothing is ever simple in nature.

A simple recessive gene such as the LC gene in the GSD can, in theory, be bred out in 5 generations. This means if you do cheek swabs on every dog you use for breeding and only select  for breeding for 4 consecutive generations those dogs that are negative for being  carriers, there will only be about a 3% of getting longcoats after the 5th generation even if the original dog was a coat. I doubt it would be a smart thing to do, but it could be done if anyone really wanted to rid their lines of longcoats. In the process, they would most likely end up with coats that are way too short which are as bad or maybe worse than coats with too much length and no undercoat. It could well be that the LC gene is needed in this breed in order to produce correct coats, so trying to eliminate it all together may not be prudent. Since the SV will issue a breed survey to a long stock hair, it seems to me that they understand the need for the LC gene, but have decided that an undercoat is necessary.

Good post Blitzen, and you said it with class.

A correction to my posts above - long-stock hairs are no longer eligible for breed surveys. Sorry.

That's what I been waiting for Blitzen and he auto-correct... Long-stock coat is not eligible for breed-survey... I think just before 1999 Sgr. Rikkor bad boll was on top...  And guys... who among the VA's and VA bloodlines is rampant in PRODUCING Coats.???  did I hear someone saying an ENTIRE litter of Coats... 

Let me share this... I've heard an old saying... Sgr. Uran Wildsteigerland was so excellent in temperament and conformation that...  "Even if you breed a Goat (ugly dog)... He will still look like a German Shepherd dog..."  I got 2 Long-stocks out of 3 when line-bred on URAN and I thought it was far enough already 5-5... Mark haus Beck was supposed to correct this flaw him being opposite to the URAN-type...

Any other blood-lines you can think of.???    It's one problem that spans both side of the spectrum... Working and Show-lines...

The philosophy that longer haired dogs can withstand more cold is bull puckey. Look at the thread about dogs that love water. My dogs dive into the rivers and lakes at almost freezing temps if given the chance. Lay down in the snow and roll in it. I cracked the ice out of my hose in Germany, to free it up and gave my dog a bath the day after Thanksgiving. His tongue was hanging out as he panted twords the end. Any SAR dog that wont go through snow, ice, or sticker bushes needs to be replaced with another dog. Coat leangth isn't an excuse.

Also I find more show line dogs with thicker fur and longer coats. I tend towords or just end up with dogs with a slicker coat and have had no issues with cold or heat tolerence. Some dogs are just sissies.

Marci, it is very difficult to find dogs that do not carry long-coat recessive gene, especially in show-lines - but also in working lines.  Most dogs with correct coat type (thick with undercoat, with some extra on pants and legs, around neck and belly, tail) do carry long-coat recessive.  Breeding dry/thin coated dogs to eliminate the coat recessive is not the answer either, the breed is supposed to have a thick, weather-resistant coat.  Dry, short-coated dogs get cold, wet and hot too, they don't have enough undercoat.  So IMO breeding the long-coat into the breed as a RECESSIVE is important - and a few long-coated puppies in the  litters as a result is not so bad - as long as the breeder is responsible and sells them with non-breeding contract as very good, beautiful pets or working candidates.

molly