Remote or electric training collars - Page 4

I use an ecollar for off leash control and think it is wonderful.  I often use the vibrate only, it seems to remind the dog that eyes are upon him. 

For example with the long down with distractions I think it is far kinder and clearer to the dog to use the e collar once for a correction when the dog knows the command and has chosen to break it.  I would imagine you would have to use multiple leash corrections to get the same result.

I believe that most people that have seen me and my dogs work will agree that we have a pretty good bond and work as a team.

But I really, really, agree with everyone else.  If you use an ecollar learn how to use it with an expert.  Timing is extremely important among other things. 

positive punishment is not the same as aversive.

there are plenty of natural aversives in life.

You can of course rely on a relationship rather than a lead. 

In this context vaccination worming tattooing and microchipping can be seen as punishments!

There is a difference between doing something because you HAVE to for safety etc and doing something because you merely want to win prizes

Okay I'll bite,

If you need to use an e-collar to get a solid long down, go back and teach it right.

I haven't had to use any multiple leash corrections either, a simple verbal one works quite well.

I have used the e collar on my first Schutzhund dogs, haven't needed to on the recent ones. My training and my helpers have gotten better and clearer.  Haven't been to Nationals yet, (which seems to be the argument, that you need the level of compulsion of an e-collar to get there) because my 3 year old dog died one month after recieving a 291 at his Schutzhund 3, not at his own club. I did however, get 100 in obedience and 97 in protection without the use of an e-collar. Not to mention it was 95 degrees out.

Can we please hear about people reaching high levels without the use of an e-collar? Are they out there?

Not to derail this thread, but could the issue of "Avoidance" also be discussed here?  My Schutz club members say that my soft dog shows this and they suspect that this was most likely due to misuse of an E collar, or perhaps an inexperienced handler.  She is a German import from a well known kennel.  She has very little prey or food drive and we are still searching for just the right toy that will help her start to be handler focused, and hopefully have some enjoyment in the process.  I searched the messageboard database for this topic and have not found it discussed.  Any help would be appreciated!!!

Thank you,

T.

The e-collar is totally practical and is a fantastic tool IF YOU USE IT CORRECTLY.  It's simply another tool in the toolbox. People that say it's abuse are either uneducated or ignorant. They are not only useful for training but also help safeguard against everyday possible litigious situations. Just look around at the amount of law enforcement agencies that have them on the k9 whenever he is on duty.

I personally can't stand hearing people that scream abuse whenever they hear of or see one. 

Interesting discussion! I have gone the route of using one under the assistance of my schH club TD for only certain issues.  I trusted the TD's skill and judgement.  Our TD has a great understanding of dog learning. I do not trust MY OWN skills!  The first time we used it, his drive decreased temporarily.  He wasn't sure what he was getting zinged for .  He generalized the correction not to his behavior but to something off the mark.  We needed to use it for several sessions with a lot of stress relief and fun afterward to build him up again.  BUT he learned the behavior reliably. Its is such a precise tool that the room for error can be small.  Corrections in general need to be fair and timely. The challenge is the timing of the correction and the level. Critical too, it seems to be the dog's response to the correction--how fast he recovers. We can't always be sure the dog knows what he is being corrected for.  The dog may generalize the correction with the totally wrong thing.  .  For example I was walking back home with my dog.  He was on a prong collar--live link.  I tripped and in my efforts to not fall I accidently jerked the hell out of my dog.  He yipped horribly!!  The next few times we passed by that area of the yard he repeated looked a bit stressed and began to sniff and sniff.  I think  he may have thought the ground bit him for no apparent reason!  He did not connect the jerk with me or what we were doing--but a spot on the ground!

Earlier last year , when Kristi started her training with ;her trainer in schutz  , he explained to Michael , how he used the e collar after the dog was in advanced training....and showed us , on his dog.,, how he and in what situations it is now used widely among some working line dogs......

Timing was the critical point he made, to us, that needed to be used and you have to have a very experienced person , working the dog to read the dog....after using the e collar...only in certain problem areas , does he use this.....Michael died , so we never got to even get past tracking   4 legs.....

someday......

Training consists of more than one method.  A true trainer has learned to use any and every method if he wants to ever talk about it. That is part of the job. Everyone will do what suits their personality more so than anything else, but still know about every other method as well. A huge part of that is the of course the ability to observe many different people and the brains to shut up and learn and then sort it out later.

Ignorance and closemindedness irritate me. They make me get as irritated with folks that condem a e-collar just as much as the folks that condem clicker training. If used correctly both are great assests. In operant conditioning "wrong" use may result in a dog not doing what you want. When using the e-collar incorrectly it can and does cause pain frequently! So therefore, like mentioned above - go with someone that really knows what they are doing.

I have had the great pleasure to witness things being done over the years in training that are absolutly unbelievable. As such I can and will say that it is possible to train without an e-collar even on distance and get it done right. But it takes an above average understanding and commitment.  It is also not devoid of compulsion, just not with an e-collar. There are other ways to proof the animal without using an e-collar.

I have used e-collars before. In emergencies. I have learned other methods that I prefer. I frequently find myself having to defend the fact that I don't condem them (although I condem at least 95% of the instances I have observed them being used) as well as defend the fact that I like positive methods better. But I do not use them as part of my working with the dogs either. They are not a part of my regularly schedule program.

The argument is not that it can be used to reach high levels as "everyone" seems to, but that it can be done without e-collars. Is the question that it can' be done without compulsion or is it that it can be done without the use of an e-collar?

How may people here recognize the fact that every dog is different and every dog needs to be trained in a way, best suited for that dog?

ramagsd, your dog sounds very sensitive. My pup would not have even noticed the prong trip senario, let alone showed a reaction to the spot it happened. Like I said, every dog is different and you need to recognize that when you train, be more upbeat or lower key depending on your dogs reactions. I have had dogs I can't really reward because they would turn into a wagging spaz, yet other dogs need encouragement throughout the session, every step of the way. So far my dog has been motivationally trained with very few corrections, or what he feels is a correction anyway. Some of you would see my guidence as correction and it may very well be, on your dog. I have a big lumix I can crank on all day and he wouldn't notice, kinda like a fly buzzing irritatingly at him. I get a better reaction through play and a ball reward. I can't crank hard enough to "make" him do anything.

I'm sure precision and fine tuning will be done later with the E. I'll let my trainer decide when that should happen.

I am sure that some of us know dogs that would love to dance with positive only bunch. These people remind me of the saying "There is no such thing as an aethiest on the front line when the bombs are dropping."  I would like to see you negotiate with these dogs when they have their 42 buried in your butt. These people would take REALLY strong dogs and put them down because they were terrified to with hold a cookie for no focus. These people would also turn this great breed into poodles in short order. My solution is they can go get poodles now and leave the real dogs alone.