Anyone have experience with Katzenblut shepherds? Hips? - Page 4

 Old blog, I know, but I was a bit shocked to see some of the entries.

I have known this breeder personally for a short time, but my own research shows that this kennel has been in business for four decades.  They are not a fly-by-night operation.  Katzenblut has dogs literally all over the world in military, law enforcement and service capacities,  I have spoken with many of these owners who are very happy with the dogs they have purchased from Shirley over the years (many are repeat customers).

As to Shirley not responding to Yvette's e-mail, I'm not sure I would either, given the confrontational demeanor of her entries. Again, unfortunate that the bite happened, but this is not necessarily due to the fault or negligence of a breeder.  Shirley has had some serious health challenges over the past few years.  This coupled with an irate e-mail writer who was bitten by a dog from my kennel might persuade me to not reply.  I would have probably had the irate writer contact me through my attorney!! (although that costs money, you never know where someone is going in situations like that)

What's disturbing about this blog is the initial entry from Yvette regarding her bite.  I read that she's been in Schutzund for seven years or so.  Interesting this was her first problem with an aggressive dog.  Her injury, while unfortunate, cannot be considered unheard of.  I've seen helpers and handlers alike with similar, if not worse injuries.  Bite work involves walking a fine line of aggression and discipline.  Not all dogs are up to the training, REGARDLESS of breeding, pedigree, genetics, etc.  Blaming Shirley for this incident is like being hit on a motorcycle and blaming Harley for the injury.  Sure, some people do just that, but rational folks recognize this as one of the potential risks of working with large dogs.  Additionally, there are many variables aside from breeding that contribute to a dog's demeanor.  The breeder has no control over how a dog is handled, trained or treated once it leaves the kennel.  In a nutshell,  If you don't want to risk a bite, don't work with big dogs.  It's that simple.

GSD's are not machines, they are living creatures.  This implies variability in phenotype and temperment, despite human's best efforts at manipulating nature.  Not every dog will be 100%, be it hips, attitude, whatever.  You have to look at numbers and trends, not a few isolated instances.  Also.....if you don't have first knowledge of a situation, it's probably best not to speculate, particularly when it involves bashing someone you know essentially nothing about.

T. Hughes

out of curiosity, i had to take a  look at the pooh bear pedigree.  sheeesh.  i don't know how anyone could expec t anything other than what this dog portrays.  you've got arec and sid, troll and an abfuhr dog on the bottom and asolutely nothing in the top half of the pedigree to balance it out.  if this pedigree were depicted as a balance scale you'd have a load of bricks on one side and a feather pillow on the other.  there's a lot of hardness and sharpness coming thru the dam (which is not a bad thing) but you've got to throw some sound nerves and clearheads into the mix or you end up with exactly what pooh bear is.  nervebags bred to hard, sharp dogs ALWAYS produce disaster.

yvette, i am very sorry for your injury.  i know you were just trying to help.  i'm sure that nasty bite is always in the back of your mind when new folks and unknown dogs show up on your training field.  glad that you didn't give up on dog training.  :)

is katzenblut still doing similar breedings?  i know nothing of this person, but sure hope they develop a better breeding program.

pjp

http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=katzenblut&x=13&y=5 here are the OFA results for that kennel name..if they have been around for decades its not very many and only one has elbows

When a dog shows up on OFA with elbows only, hips not mentioned, it usually means that the owner did not give permission for bad results to be published. So, I would assume that the elbows passed and the hips did not.

Michele and Pharaoh

T. Hughes,

You don't quite have the story straight.  I don't "blame" Shirley for the bite I received... that's not her teeth marks on my arm.  LOL.  The bite was caused by an unstable fear biter.  My beef with her is how she responded to the situation, and how she treated poor Harold in the process. 

I don't care how many decades she's been cranking out the litters - that is not my measure of "success" for a breeder.  I've got a real problem with anyone who posts the SV standard on their "informative" web site and then completely ignores it, bragging about the huge over-sized GSD's used for breeding.  I don't care how many happy customers she can line up willing to say that their 100 lb Katzenblut GSD is greatest bestest dog in the whole wide world.... this is NOT correct German Shepherd Dog breeding and breding over-sized dogs is to the detriment of the breed. 

As to your characterization of this event as a normal part of protection dog training, here again I strongly disagree.  This is NOT the case of a strong and stable dog getting too wound up during bitework, and me being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Been there done that, shed blood, and learned from the experience.  Your post leads me to believe you are not acquainted with the facts of the case, as there was no bitework involved.  We were at the tracking fields, everyone standing around and talking in a normal and relaxed way. 

Any breeder could have the unfortunate possibility to produce a dangerous dog with poor temperament.  In my opinion, it is the manner in which the situation is handled that matters.  Harold was an neophyte, who could have been a good club member and a good dog trainer, and I hate to see nice guys getting taking advantage of.  Poor guy... I think from the look on his face that day the bite caused him more pain than it did to me.

Yvette

Well, I guess I'd have to say that I go along with Showline2 on this one, that is, we just have to agree to disagree.  I've seen many Katzenblut dogs firsthand, and they are all far from overgrown, goliath maneaters that are described here.  I've never heard Shirley or anyone at her kennel boast about producing overgrown dogs; to the contrary, my interactions have been central to quality dogs completely within standard.  I maintain that few people stay in business 40+ years without being successful most of the time; you certainly don't stay in the GSD business long if you churn out litters of poor quality dogs.  I think if you speak to most owners of Katzenblut dogs (I've talked to several), you would find satisfaction as the watchword.  I might add Katenblut supplies dogs to the Walt Disney Companies in addition to many law enforcement and government applications....I've not heard of any small children being eaten at Disney World in recent years, at least by a GSD.  No public service agency would continue to purchase unstable or dangerous dogs from an irresponsible breeder--liability is far too high.  I don't know Pooh Bear, and he may indeed be a "bad" dog, but once again, no one on this blog really knows how that dog was treated after leaving the breeder.  Many experts (vets) believe dogs are not born as "fear biters", rather that is is a learned or instilled behavior virtually all of the time.

As for Schutzhund training, I would maintain there is a degree of inherent risk involved.  Just saw an incident last Sunday where a helper was knocked to the ground and injured by a dog.  I've seen a helper with open lacerations to the neck and jaw from a GSD.  It happens.  When you lose sight or minimize the risks, I think you're asking for a problem.  It's a great sport, but should not be treated in a cavalier fashion.

Now we have ridiculous new posts describing katzenblut.com as a "dangerous" website.  Looked at it myself (many times), no such message.  Can you folks get a life??

Lastly, we come to the topic of poor Harold.  Interestingly, there is a lack of input from this player.  Based on the posts here, it sounds like Shirley tried to work with him and then the details get sketchy.  I suggest you let Harold put on his big boy pants and fight his own battles rather than inciting an entire blog against a breeder with whom most, if not all posting have had no personal experience.

'Nuff said.  I'm done.

Best wishes,

T. Hughes

Shirley is currently battling a serious illness... KARMA maybe?

"Arrakis":

WOW!!  Incredible insensitivity.  Good that you hide behind a screen name and don't show your face in the photo.  I wouldn't either.  What a yellow coward you must be. To make a mockery of anyone's health misfortune is just plain wrong.  One day you may realize this fact.  You should thank God you have not been forced to deal with the same problem.

Why don't you go back to pulling wings off of flies or whatever other cowardly acts you enjoy??  Maybe you've been on "Jerry Springer"?  You've got about that much class.

 USAFDoc,

I will disagree with this sentence you write: "you certainly don't stay in the GSD business long if you churn out litters of poor quality dogs". 

I know plenty of piss poor breeders doing it only for the money churning out litter after litter. Some of them stay in business a long, long time. In regard to this particular breeder, I have no information. But I can say that in all the years I have posted and read posts here and elsewhere, I do not recall this breeder being the topic of negative comments. Often a single or small handful of problems popping up are misunderstandings. It is the pattern over and over and over that one should look at, as well as who is making the complaint and under what circumstances.

It is silly to post all this crap posted above about the web site. What some people do not understand about such messages is too long to try to teach here. The bottom line is that what is there is crap. I have looked at the same website many times over the years, for one reason or another. If ANYONE is on the internet without sufficient anti-virus software, then you deserve what you get. It is critical to understand what viruses can and cannot do and to not simply propagate a lot of baloney as the posting above does.

Remember too all of you that most people did NOT do elbows up until recently and many more don't even do OFA. I consider it a requirement for any dog I buy who is over 4 months of age, and I would not sell any dog who did not have either OFA or the German "a" stamp. If someone is considering whether to buy a dog from any breeder, I think one should know the health status of the bloodlines, for the parents and grandparents, at the least. So if one does not see that information or is not provided it, then ask.

As for injuries occurring during training, to dogs or to their handlers or others in the area, it should never happen if EVERYONE is on the same page. Again, I have not looked at all these posts, but I know in my club we go to great lengths to prevent any incident from happening. None the less, it can and does happen.  There is an inherent risk for all involved in Schutzhund and one should understand that and be well schooled and use common sense to assure safety at all times for all involved.

Hey Hodie:

Thanks for the input....you're a breath of fresh air for this posting.  I agree with you on all counts, however, I still say that if you are a serious volume breeder with ongoing problems, it usually catches up with you.  Probably moreso in today's electronic world of internet and information access.  A bad breeded can usually be figured out with minimal effort on the part of the buyer.

I'm also glad you're unaware of negative trends with Katzenblut Shepherds.  I think these folks do make an effort to produce quality dogs.  That said, no one has flawless results 100% of the time.  This whole posting had become so irrational and ridiculous, it pissed me off to read it.  So much of what was written was pure speculation and most posting comments knew NOTHING firsthand of this kennel.

Thanks again.