The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 38

"Beschützer" - seems to be ( and I only say "seems" because I never met this dog and have to stick to the video ) a good looking good working dog with a very interesting pedigree.
A lot of his ancestors result out of well known showlines, I didn´t check the females, but that would double the result for sure.
 

( For Ibrahim cause almost nobody else will care )

Father side / Stuka
Eros Adeloga ( Quanto Wienerau )
Datscha Patersweg ( Canto Wienerau )
Uras Lahnblick ( Canto Wienerau )
Natz Wienerau ( - Mutz ( Canto Wienerau )
Bill Töpfergrube ( Vello Unterhain / Quanto Wienerau )
Nick Wienerau ( Mutz Pelztierfarm / Canto Wienerau )
Yakasin Batu ( - Lasso / Quanto )
Lauser Adeloga ( Canto Arminius/Quanto Wienerau )
Fanto Bayerischen Wald ( Cäsar Arminius / Canto Wienerau / Quanto )
 

Mother side / Olka
even closer, too much for writing this down

Seems to me that a lot of breeders within this pedigree tried to improve conformation AND to improve working abilities of their offspring.

Natural protectiveness was covered under the posts that stressed the importance and role of instincts. Yes, you are late, its already been covered.
Today's culture, at least in the USA and recently now in France, is definitely not solfter and gentler. Fifty and sixty years ago people, even in the city, did not have the need to lock doors of their homes and cars. Most homes forty and fifty years ago had dogs for pets, now the dogs must double as deterrent/watch dog/ give alert to intruders. This applies to city and rural.
As for "tough working dogs", the standard for gs breed does not say anywhere that the breed must be so "tough" that only a chosen few should be able to "handle"them. Most people wouldn't want dogs so "tough"they are a liability, and especially since dogs that are so over the top aggressive that it takes a special person to "handle" them are useless in real life. That is a fantasy dog for someone who likely has an feriority complex. As for "tough working dogs which were common in the past", you have said over and over again that the best gsds from the days of the pohranicni straze were crap compared to the dogs of today. :-/

Prager, I´m totally with you about change of society, but why the heck do people living in the middle of a town need to own a working dog breed ( not even talking about the German Shepherd dog right now ).
And I´m with you about increasing prey drive, not necassarily about the whole breed being more "tuff" in earlier times.
It´s the damned prey drive - the dogs are able to overcome a lot of temperament issues with it.
But at least it´s fine for SAR, drug detection, national IPO trials... 

Suzie, I noticed all the high line dogs in the dog's ped as well. In fact, there are few WL ped in which I have not seen high line dogs. I believe it is an error for people who believe themselves as purists, to think dogs which are admired are devoid of the high line. I have been able to see them behind most WL ped I've searched, including my own dogs. I have only three dogs which do not go back to the SL. Perhaps that is what is considered "old ped" , like old world monkeys and modern ped ( containing the high line dogs) equals "New world monkeys".
The difference I noticed is that the WL dogs do not seem destroyed by the SL infusion, however, the SL dogs seem not to regain or overcome their short comings with only one cross to WL ( one cross appears to be the number which is accepted) .

Susie, I can assure you that in a suburban area a working dog breed has its benefits.  I only can speak from experience and what local PD are telling me, but with the rise of addiction and heroin epidemic, it is my opinion people have become more bold in obtaining money ie. Daytime burglaries/carjacking.  I live approximately 15 mins from Philadelphia and it doesn't matter how nice your town is, crime is on the rise and crime does not discriminate.  My 9 month old is a deterrent and I can assure you because I live on a busy road, there is a lot of foot traffic and they notice my WL GSD..the quiet stance.  And I can hear people talk.  He doesn't look like any other american line/showline or what have you.  There is an obvious difference..IMO

I will also add that as a pup he was around all that noise and traffic of the busy road.  I will venture to say ideal for a seeing eye dog as well

I also agree with Prager about society...WWII is said to be the greatest generation.  Everyone today is a winner and lawyers and insurance companies rule the world 

I'm going to say Prager has a point. I've met far too many GSDs lately with temperaments like golden retrievers. They'd jump all over me and beg to be petted when I arrived at their home, and not even give a single bark!  Need I remind you this is NOT correct GSD temperament?

My current two bark very loudly when someone is at the door. Star even continues to bark when the person comes inside, even when she knows the person. She's certainly a great deterrent, which is often all that is needed to prevent home invasions and burglaries. Would she carry through with a bite, in case of a genuine threat?  That I don't know. She has certainly never even growled at someone when I've been home to let them it.

I have a friend who owns 6 GSDs, and several are always out in the yard when I visit. There is only ONE of them that won't let me walk rignt in to the yard, whether she's home or not. Interestingly enough, the one I need to worry about is a showline, and the one that really couldn't give a flip and doesn't even bark is a tough-ass working line with Troll in her pedigree!

I'm not talking about mankillers here, and I'm sure Prager isn't either. But the natural aloofness and protective instinct that is supposed to be part of this breed is disappearing , and with the popularity of all-posiitive training techiques, few people are able to train a breed as strong as the GSD.

And I just have to say a bit more about training, as most of us on this board are involved in schutzhund, which does rely on the use of corrections. I see the 'effectiveness' of modern training techniques on a daily basis here at my boarding kennel. Only about one dog in twenty that comes in here has any sort of leash manners. The ones that are the hardest to control are large dogs whose owners have succumbed to the latest fad that says collars are cruel, and will damage their dog's neck. They jump, spin, and pull as I try to take them back to the kennel. Then, of course, the harness has to come off before I put them in a cage. In most cases, this leaves the dog without even a collar I can grab to try to control it as i am turning it in and out!! 

 

People cross the streets everywhere to avoid GSD's, doesn't matter which lines. The average man off the street doesn't know the difference between a workingline and a showline.They might ask the owner of a sable workingline if it a "real thoroughbred Shepherd with papers" and I've been asked the same about my 3/4 ASL, 1/4 GSL. A GSD/Police dog is a GSD/Police dog, the same dog to the general public and  most stay away from all of them. They cross the street or respect the dog's territory because it's a GSD, not because of it's pedigree. These people can't tell the different between a Malamute and a wolf, how could they know if a GSD is worklinglines or showlines? We can tell but people who have never owned a GSD cannot.

You don't need a workingline to deter muggers or thieves. Any old GSD other than one of the social butterflies will do that.

So, ss, are you agreeing then, that there is no one left in society that can handle your SL that bark except you? And BTW, troll is known to produce high prey drive dogs for sport, not territoriality. And of course protectiveness is not being selected for by many breeders, those would be the golden retriever types of which you speak. But territoriality, protectiveness are all instinctual ( except the ones prager said he can train any dog to be territorial and protective) and the importance of instinct and the neglect by most breeders to select for it was covered many pages ago.

Ss, the breed standard states a gsd is to be BIDDABLE, so what's the balogna about "few people can train a breed as strong as the gsd." .? Here you go, Sun silver, you must have missed this part from the sv standard for the gsd...."CHARACTER The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog." The part that says "...attentive and willing to please.". In other words, Biddable. Nothing in there says the correct character of the gsd should be as you and prag described....too tough to handle except by special tough society.

I have found a nice video showing Schutzhund training in Germany 1936. It features mainly GSDs and some Dobermans. One can observe some GSDs movements and bite. Most of the biting exercises are ``Angriff unter Beschuss`` - Attack under fire.