The GSD must SPLIT away from The Alsation! - Page 32

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jaymesie51

by jaymesie51 on 28 January 2009 - 15:01

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i agree with you mo what i was saying is if the KC had not insisted on keeping the word alsatian on our standard then alsatians would not exist but because they insisted in keeping this name that is why two types still remain so i agree split them and never the twain shall meet it would be nice if it could be an amacable split but i doubt that
jim h


by Penny on 28 January 2009 - 16:01

Its gonna happen Jim.  Thats how we have to think, because if we all dont get positive, the K.C. certainly wont.  Yes, I understand where you are coming from, and you are totally right in my opinion - what other breed in the show or working world has two names to its handle... its just daft, so I think that if we can go about it the right way, and the KC. can "eventually" be convinced of our case, then it will work.  I know its going to be a rough ride, I know we might be shunned and laughed at by Clarges St in the beginning - but you know, they are a business, and we are a big customer.

Being a customer.... if we go to a shop with a complaint and want developments to suit us..... do we....

1.Go in mob-handed, be insulting and knock the shop about.???  

2.do we go without preparing what we really want as the outcome, and hope we get our way? 

3. do we go well planned with a polite firm reason why they should do something for us, and if refused, be determined and go again until we get the fair outcome that we know we are entitled to?  

Having been pointed in the way of correct protocol, I am told that the Breed Council is viewed as the best way to approach the Kennel Club.  I will now be collating support, approaching the breed council for their support in appointing the correct people to steer the effort to the Kennel Club... and those people must come from breeders and exhibitors and fanciers opinions not from who the Breed Council committee think would be the best team - I would be asking the Breed Council to support a chosen team, and I will expect support from the Breed Council committee on the subject of seperating the two types.  The Breed Council is made up of our clubs, and all of the people in those clubs ... i.e. the members MUST be given the right to suggest their chosen "spokesman" for their type of dog.  This will take time, but I am willing to put that time in, and if anyone else can do so for me with their clubs, and I can have their assurance that it will get to every member, then I will go with that too, as its a large task, and help would be great.  I am now thinking of circulating a letter in Our Dogs and Dog World - and hope that the Breed Council will put a letter in "Full Page" complimentary style - just outlining and asking for support and suggestions that may have been left out or fogotten.   Also - if anyone out there has a good friend that is sitting at home and has spent their life on their GSDs/Alsatians then please ask their opinion,they matter.    Mo 


by reason on 28 January 2009 - 17:01

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Penny

You have thrown the ball wonder how many will catch it!

Sophie

by Sophie on 28 January 2009 - 17:01

Mo I like you idea re the letter that you suggest goes out to Our  Dogs & Dog World etc. Could you also post that letter either on email to us all or on this web site? My reason for asking this some people don't purchase the dog press as a whole. So it could be downloaded printed off and given to club members. We have 150 plus so there is a good start! This may also go a long way to some form of education with ''Joe Public''.  Still in this day and age Mr Public has no idea about what they are purchasing then  when it is too late they then turn up at a dog training club for help.

 Carol M.


by georgehopwood on 28 January 2009 - 18:01

Sorry I was confused last night as to what this thread was about and I have today actually taken the time to read the whole thread, and I am still confused.

Why should it be up to the breeders to decide a split, imo its the breeders fault the GSD is how it is today messing around with genetics, inbreeding/linebreeding, messing with colours, long coat, short coats. (was it not the chairman of the KC who admitted to inbreeding!)

There is a lot of breeders who breed non standard GSD and breed successfully, these breeders spend thousands doing the correct health checks only mate dogs with low hipscores etc, AND there also a large number of standard gsd breeders that do not adhere to the above and are messing around with genetics and do not give a sh@t what they produce or how they produce there dogs.

Yes the unsuspecting perspective dog owner will purchase these "RARE GERMAN SHEPHERDS" but at what price !!!! does the perspective naive dog owner know enough about genetics or bloodlines to understand that there new cute furball of fluff could be carrying a time bomb ready to explode! how could they possibly know when breeders try to shut the likes of me up, lol I wonder how many of you would react if I was to publish the disc that shows the "German Shepherd Breeders dogs hip scores"

I knew nothing about genetics/bloodline/pedigrees before I purchased my GSD, but I know enough now to try and guide these perspective buyers to the breeders who I know care about the breed; standard or non standard breeders; but after reading this thread I need to find the answer to what is "A German Shepherd Dog"

Like I have said I am the "Joe Public" who parts with the money to buy your "German Shepherd Dog" so I  think that "Joe Public" should have a say or at least be made aware of what the breeders are planning ! I like many is hoping for that perfect GSD



lol at you jo George is predominately English Obedience/agility lines with a couple of German showline stud dogs further back.
so that puts me in different situation; so I own a cross working/showlined gsd dog, with German ancestors, this gets better, So he will not be grouped as an Alsation, nether does he meet the criteria to be called a German Shepherd.....I dread to think or even ask what group he will be put in !


Penny/Mo I wish you all the luck; I think this is going to be one impossible task

lol GSD snobbery, 







Sophie

by Sophie on 28 January 2009 - 18:01

BELOW HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM THE Kennel Club's own web site:-
All judges will be expected to use the revised standards at Crufts 2009, which will be a showcase for healthy, well adjusted dogs. The Kennel Club show regulations have also been amended to lay down more clearly than ever, a judge’s duty only to reward those dogs that are healthy representatives of their breed, at all Kennel Club licensed shows. Judges will have the authority to remove from competition completely any dog that appears to be unhealthy and Kennel Club officials and show officials are expected to refer any dogs that they believe to be unhealthy to the on-site vet, who can authorise the dog’s removal from further competition at that show.
In a further move, the Kennel Club has announced that it will crack down on the small number of breeders who continue to use the practice of mating close relatives by refusing to register those puppies that are born from any mother/son, father/daughter or brother/sister mating, taking place on or after 1st March 2009. Departures from this principle will only be made in exceptional circumstances or for scientifically proven welfare reasons. Kennel Club research into the genetic diversity of all breeds in the UK is ongoing and further changes will be considered in the future, on a breed specific basis. Additionally, all dog owners and breeders will be required to permanently identify their dogs, via microchip or tattoo, from January 2010, in order to participate in the Kennel Club/British Veterinary Association health schemes for eye disease and hip and elbow dysplasia. These schemes have been in place for many years and give dog owners in relevant breeds the opportunity to test for a number of common disorders; this move is introduced, at the express request of the veterinary profession, to ensure the fairness and accuracy of the results of the schemes.
Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club spokesperson, said: “We want the New Year to begin well for pedigree dogs and the changes that have been announced today underline the Kennel Club’s deep commitment to ensuring that every pedigree dog has the best possible chance of leading a happy, healthy life.
“Our revised breed standards are underpinned by new regulations, which further support show judges in their right to remove from competition those dogs who stray from the breed standard in a way that is detrimental to their health. Dog shows attract a great deal of public support in this country and are designed to celebrate and reward only those dogs that are healthy representatives of their breed and are of good temperament. We are determined to make sure that this is, and remains, so.


by Ally B on 28 January 2009 - 21:01

Oh wife of Paul/Liz

Correct me again IF I,m wrong but I DO BELIEVE Penny/Mo does assume to much. She wrote "but if people are interested enough to get out of their armchairs,if we could get that near,then that would take the vote". Now in the context of this post & Mos stance on this subject please put me straight as to where I,m wrong ?

Now please also show me in my post where I "slated her for her opinion"

I think you should read & digest things before making such comments about me

 

Ally

PS
I don,t hide behind a computer key board either & Mo actually says "its gonna happen" so explain that- perhaps she was talking about the "vote again



 


by pacosbear on 28 January 2009 - 22:01

Ally


As I said orginally I do not read mo/pennys post as assuming too much how does the quote "but if people are interested enough to get out of their armchairs,if we could get that near,then that would take the vote" assume too much??.  To me what this says is if there are genuine folks out there on both 'sides' who really do care about the breed(s) then why not get off there butts and do something about it - mo/penny is quite clearly offering herself up as the point of contact for registering interest for both 'sides'.  Do I have this incorrect? if so I am open to your interpretation of what mo/penny is saying.... please advise

With regards 'slating' you are absolutely correct this term is wrong you do not 'slate' mo/penny at all, for that I apologies, no justification for that at all even if it was 2am, your statement read

"All German Shepherd enthusiasts matter & their vote SHOULD count. You assume far too much......... "

my statement should have read why do you believe mo/penny does not believe that all gs enthusiasts don't matter?  have I missed something??  
 

With regards  your ps: mo/penny explains this here: "Its gonna happen Jim.  Thats how we have to think, because if we all dont get positive, the K.C. certainly wont."  Why not take a vote?  Can the board operators create a poll to allow a vote to happen?  Eg:  Should the GSD (Alsation) Breed be split into two seperate breeds (GSD AND ESD/Alsation) with two seperate standards? Yes/No.


This is not directed at anyone in particular however, personally I am interested in the 'state' of the gsd.esd/alsation world, and am continually dissappointed in the gsd, esd/alsatian show world in terms of how people act towards one another under the guise of something you proport to care about namely the gsd/esd/alsatian.  To Joe Public - of which I am one -  it is unfortunate to see those supposidely 'in the know 'on such matters on both 'sides' slinging mud at one another, rather than uniting and moving forward with the interests of both sides addressed.  BUT more importantly the interests in the health/welfare and standard of the relevant breed(s).

Liz


 


Sue B

by Sue B on 28 January 2009 - 22:01

Mo (penny) ,

As now is the time for clubs to have their AGM's, I suggest all clubs put this issue on their AGM Agenda's to discuss with and take a vote from their membership at their forthcoming AGM.

Perhaps your club could also send it as a proposal for the next BC Meeting and perhaps the BC could be instructed to devise a consensus form that it could then send out to Every Judge on the BC judging lists.

Perhaps every Breed Club holding their first show this year could include a consensus form inside their Show Schedule or organise a Consensus sheet to be signed by everyone attending their show to vote either Yes or No in favour of a split.

Yes, this may take 6mths or so to get a good overall perspective of the majority of opinion but things like this should neither be rushed nor acted upon by the Minority. This database does not serve the Majority in the breed and it is THEY who must all be given as much chance as is possible to HAVE THEIR SAY AND GIVE THEIR PREFERENCE by way of a vote.

Then if the majority are in favour, then and only then armed with the results and returned  consensus forms will we have something POSITIVE to present to the KC.

Regards
Sue B 


by georgehopwood on 28 January 2009 - 22:01

To Joe Public - of which I am one -  it is unfortunate to see those supposidely 'in the know 'on such matters on both 'sides' slinging mud at one another, rather than uniting and moving forward with the interests of both sides addressed.  BUT more importantly the interests in the health/welfare and standard of the relevant breed(s).


Stands up and applauds, but to those "in the know" us the joe public do not matter are "pet dogs" are no longer their concern once the front door has been closed and our money banked !






 


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