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by Slamdunc on 30 December 2010 - 18:12

I haven't read everything posted here but to answer Jeff's question: we do not teach our Police K9's a hold and bark any longer. They are trained to find and bite, regardless if the subject is passive or combative. If the suspect is concealed under a bed, or lying in a fetal position with hands tucked under the body, running, standing still, the command is the same to find and "hold" or bite. Not find and bark or "bark and hold." If I send my dog into a building or into the woods it is with an apprehension command. IMO, the "bark and hold" is a poor technique for Police dogs. I'm not going to debate the "hold and bark" vs "find and bite" on this forum, unless you are an actual K9 handler or active trainer.

After the "out" a K9 can guard either silently or by barking, I don't care which he does as long as he is focused on the bad guy. My dog naturally does a silent guard after the out, which I prefer. I don't need him barking and possibly bumping or causing the suspect to move. My dog can and will do a very intense in your face "hold and bark." The slightest, I mean slightest, movement on the suspects part will cause my dog to bite with extreme speed. So barking causing the suspect to flinch will mean a re-bite. I don't call my dog back from a suspect after an apprehension, he is downed preferably face to face with the suspect about 2 - 3 feet apart. I will call my dog back for his safety, that would be the only time, otherwise he is guarding until the suspect is in custody.

JMO,

Jim

by Jeff Oehlsen on 30 December 2010 - 20:12

I am glad you do not do the bark and hold at your job. I will argue and argue and poke fun of you but I want to be able to do that for years to come. I think that find and bite is the best way, and the safest way.

by Slamdunc on 30 December 2010 - 20:12

I plan on being around for a long time, my job is too much fun to stop any time soon.

by SportySchGuy on 30 December 2010 - 20:12

Anyone that has done any serious work or serious training with a k9 knows that the dog cannot be looking at the handler all the time. If anyone thinks the dog isn't totally aware of the handler without looking at the handler..then they are sadly mistaken. They will take direction both verbal and hand signals without looking at the handler. Schut is a sporrt and a sport only. It is NOT a breed test and it has absolutely nothing to do with LE or PPD work. Schut dogs do not work in defense. Some are intense and some are more serious than others but no defense. They would never work the routine if they were in defense. The bark and hold is nothing more than one of the more intense games the dog knows. A dog in defense would not do a B and H. It's a great game but you have to keep things in perspective.

by Bob McKown on 30 December 2010 - 20:12

Schutzhund was supposed to be a breed test that has been watered down because of the sport.

by SportySchGuy on 30 December 2010 - 20:12

Yes, it used to be a very good breed test. Now it is a very good sport and I suppose if the sport is what you are breeeding for then it is still a good breed test. I think I am derailing the thread though LOL.

by Bob McKown on 30 December 2010 - 21:12

Sport:

This thread crashed and burned long ago...

by ramgsd on 30 December 2010 - 21:12

Not ever working a dog in defense, and then breeding on him will ruin the breed very quickly.

Train the the dog to be a whole dog that can do the sport and you may not get full points but you'll have better dogs that should be bred and that will keep the GSD true to the standard.

3 or 4 issues ago of the USA mag Nate Harves had an article about what does should be bred and the difference between breeding for good GSD's and placing certain ones in SPORT, SAR... homes and breeding for SPORT or SAR... There is a difference.

Rick

by SportySchGuy on 30 December 2010 - 21:12

"Not ever working a dog in defense, and then breeding on him will ruin the breed very quickly"

I rest my case! LOL

by Jeff Oehlsen on 30 December 2010 - 21:12

Quote: Not ever working a dog in defense, and then breeding on him will ruin the breed very quickly.

Like the GSD is doing so well. Now we have the "Sch line" mal discussions and how it is ruining the breed. LOL

Quote: A dog in defense would not do a B and H.

FInally someone that has actually paid attention to what dogs are. Whew, did not think there was one on this forum.

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