My IGP dog is afraid of the stick - Page 3

Please do keep us updated - it will be extremely interesting to hear if he makes progress and gets over this stick worry.

Personally I don't see anything 'ingrained' about it; and if you're right and it isn't, nobody is 'covering anything up', surely ? Yes of course things can get hidden by training; and that is dishonest, and no good for the breed in the long term.(Happens in the Showdogs too, where it equally should not be bred on). But if you refuse to work with any problem like this, you end up washing out & writing off dogs that do not deserve that.

How is the breed ever going to get stronger and more reliable if what is been said is the gold post .we have a Relatively new person to the working dog that is been told to cover up faults 🙈 instead of been recommended to start with a confident dog and rehome this one to a family . With this the person learns what to expect and what is acceptable in a strong nerve well balanced dog.teach from the start what you need in a working dog and you never need too know the other side . No wonder Iv re homed 3 young dogs last year from some serious pedigree that cost me in and around 9000euro . If this is the way . And if the op was confident in what he’s doing with this dog then why come here . A stick problem is a big problem because it is connected to his nerve and will show in other areas of this dog

 

Q Man:
There is NO perfect dog...We all work thru problems while training...You only know what you'll get until you do it and see how it turns out...

dog don't need to be perfect but dog can excel in certain field of practical use. it's really not rocket science to figure out to which one dog is predisposed and for which is not. 
you wouldn't push the kid to become musician if that kid obviously not predisposed to such thing. do you?

 

yogidog:
if the op was confident in what he’s doing with this dog then why come here 

you beat me.
I was going to say the same thing - if OP knew all - why ask?
also amused by encouragement to go ahead and learn how to fake the dog. 
in respect to statement about desire to learn, that doesn't make any sense. learning to cover up dog's weakness won't add to OP knowledge and experience to handle and train serious dog, if someday their way will cross.

 

Curing, you have the right attitude, so I hope you will continue to have a thirst for the knowledge.  You will learn a great deal from a dog like yours.  Please keep in mind that it may not always be pretty.  Stick shyness may and often does lead to other issues.  This is when you must remember that IPO is just a sport for the dog and you to enjoy, and if the time comes that the two of you are not enjoying it, there’s no shame in bowing out.  As others have said, there are many other avenues you can pursue.  My favorite was tracking, or any scent related work for that matter.  IPO consist of ritual (routine) exercises and is conducted in a controlled environment where scenario training can be exploited to teach the dog to respond to the various phases with a favorable outcome.  This allows almost any dog to get involved.

With that being said, you were fortunate to be able to observe your adult dog’s reaction to having the stick (a perceived threat) brought over his head.  My experience is that there is a difference between how a dog reacts to a situation and how he responds to a situation.  A reaction is a one time event that cannot be changed.  It is genetically expressed and cannot be altered through training.  The next time the dog encounters the situation he will be responding to it.  A response is much more fluid, in that the dog can be trained to act differently the next time he encounters the situation or near similar.   I hope that makes sense.  When you locate a good helper he will work to develop your dog’s confidence and teach him to respond to the threat by biting deeper and harder.   But please never forget your dog’s reaction to the threat.   

Maybe it will help explain if you watch the police dog video someone posted on a thread referencing WDA.  I believe the dog is in some type of fun competition event.  Watch this dog as he maneuvers through the various scenarios.   Take note to this dog’s reaction when he encounters the decoy with a leaf blower.  The good helper can take this dog and train him to respond favorably next time he encounters a similar leaf blowing decoy, but the good helper can do nothing to change the reaction.  Ideally, our dog reacts to that threat or similar ones by moving forward and wanting to dominate his opponent through aggression.  This takes great confidence from the dog.  It is an elusive genetic trait that should be highly sought after.  It is a reaction, not a response and more emphasis should be put on this for breed suitability.  In no way am I trying to diss that police dog’s performance.  I wish them nothing but a safe, productive and adventurous career together.  

It should be noted that the dog doesn’t lack confidence on the sleeve.
When we first evaluated him (when I first went on trial with him) he had calm full grips and was very impressive, this was with a different helper and he was evaluated by our club director who felt he had potential. The problem was he was inconsistent and his obedience was 0 and I wasn’t going to continue working like that with a dog who wasn’t going to listen nor did I want him to keep learning that being inconsistent was fine. Which is why we made the decision to completely start him over and develop him better for a more solid and well rounded dog.

Bitework has been on the back burner for me because obedience is more important. We decided to start working bitework again just recently (after I moved) which is when I discovered the problem. This was with a different helper and first time with the stick with ME handling him. 
I know he’s been worked on the sleeve with the stick before, but that wasn’t with me and I have no clue how he responded to that/those instance(s). Nor do I know how they handled it. So all I’m seeing is what the problem is NOW and that’s what I’m trying to fix.

I asked here because I like having options and opinions from people who may have experienced similar.
But,
I really really hate the mentality that just because a dog has a problem that you may find as “weak” that the dog is an automatic wash out.
It’s actually ludicrous to pretend like poor training methods can’t affect a dogs performance or destroy their confidence because apparently “a dog is good or it’s not.”
That’s not how it works. Yes genetics have a role, but so do your training methods and faulting a good dog because it was put into the wrong hands shows how dispensable you see these animals.
And while yes a VERY small amount of dogs are actually affected by training and most just have shit nerves. You can’t completely disregard the few that have been affected by shitting trainers and handlers.

So stop acting like a dog is useless garbage just because they don’t fit your standards. Especially ones you haven’t even evaluated yourself in person.


 

Anyway.
Talked with our mentor today and he agreed to be our helper. He was a bit surprised about what happened and even more surprised (and upset) that the stick was even brought out at this time in his training, but said that a few people had actually been having problems with that particular helper so they no longer recommend him.
We discussed and decided to evaluate the dog again at a later time after he’s advanced more in OB and Protection.

We also start tracking next week so we’ll be involved in all three phases finally.

The first dog that I trained in schutzhund (many years ago) was a Belgian Tervuren - he was my pet, companion and fishing partner for years before we learned about sport. This dog was a 'show' lines dog, not bred for sport but for well-adjusted pets. While he was probably the smartest dog that I've had, he was not the most suitable for sport. He was less engaged in obedience and not a really strong dog in protection. I had to work hard to get him actively engaged in obedience and learn how to compensate for his 'soft' temperament in the bite-work. I was not going to just 'put him up' and get a better, stronger dog (even though many suggested I do so), therefore I worked hard and studied techniques and methods to make our training more effective. In other words, working with a weaker dog made me a stronger trainer.

Good luck with your training, and if you are realistic about expectations then you will not be disappointed and should have lots of fun and good learning experiences with this dog.