Crash course in drives and lines - Page 3

According to the author of DER Schutzhund and may I share it with the message board.. "Do your dogs a favor and help them develop all the components that make up good fighting drive, rather than waiting until it magically appears out of thin air because the dog should have "it" naturally..." This will somewhat explain that a dog is a dog, It can be trained with the correct techniques... It so happens that Working lines has a decades headstart going to the correct direction the founder visioned it to be... The Showline people will have to work diligently with their dogs to incorporate this to their lines or else their best alternative will be having a beautiful dog as a GUIDE for the BLIND or SAR work where protection work is only an option... For the working line people, a hard biting dogs is not the only working dog, he needs to be hard at the same time intelligent to know when to bark and when to fight and when to bite.

ooopps... sorry EXPERIENCING TECHNICAL ISSUES with the internet connection ...

Mike J: The topic is hot and difficult because many people want their dog to be something that it is not. Just as many people deny that there dog is what it is. Another reason it is a hot topic is that people get too wrapped up in the "ego" of training. Schutzhund is not patrol work...never will be. Could some SchIII dogs be patrol dogs, answer is yes. Could some worklines excel at Schutzhund? Answer is probably...but rarely will you find a clear answer because patrol work is hitting both arms and or legs/hidden sleeves, deploy from car, releasing the bite to bite the threat arm (ex: Perp has a knife and switches hands so he can stab dog after dog has made initial contact). These dogs are normally not put on a sport field where the decoy is wearing single sleeve only. The eagerness to bite alone is not a sign of a good working dog. Why does it bite? Confident and courageous or scared out of its mind. What is the dog's tolerance to pain and other stimuli? Many patrol dogs go through training with a muzzle on and the decoy without sleeves to help determine this. What is the dog's dominance level...the more dominant the dog, typically the better patrol dog but in novice hands will be a pet that puts a family on antipsychotic meds. For example: A litter is born and both parents are big city police dogs. This does not mean that any of the pups will be good police dogs. It means that the chances are improved that they can achieve what the parents achieved. Ask a breeder that specializes in working dogs if every pup goes to police/military agency. That answer is no. Conversely, people think that a pup from show lines will win show after show. Does not happen. Many are excellent in sport and others are just plain duds from a training perspective. Keep in mind that these lines are in reality, the foundation of the breed today, for better or worse. They are the most sport trained, most shown, and most bred dogs of all the GSDs. They are the most popular also, because at the end of the day they make great pets and the owner thinks that at the drop of a hat they will show up with a cape and S on their chest. The decision to get a pup requires significant honesty about you, your training experience and current lifetstyle. I had a dual purpose protection/narc dog from west german lines (now passed away) and a have a 10yr old male from east german lines which is straight up bodyguard. Both dogs excel with my kids...both under age of 4. My male dog would have ended up in a shelter if it had gone to a home that was not training focused. His social D equates to alot of "stubborness" on a daily basis. I recently got my first female out of sport/show lines. My life does not allow 20hrs per week of dedicated training with a competent decoy. I do have enough time to work Schutzhund at a mid level of dedication. This dog is 5 years old and has the temperament with the kids and enough ball/play drive to make life fun. As far as my ego goes...it is low. Ask people that you trust both in breeding and in training. Hope this helps.

GET A REAL DOG, Great description.. ALPHAPUP,drives may not be a good way to describe your dogs, but dogs with very strong drives, the word fits. Defining the drives opens the door to more detailed description of a particular activity. I laugh at you and your moptivation.

GET A REAL DOG, Great description.. ALPHAPUP,drives may not be a good way to describe your dogs, but dogs with very strong drives, the word fits. Defining the drives opens the door to more detailed description of a particular activity. I laugh at you and your moptivation.

Alphapup You need to relax! Your hackles are up, your ears are back and your showing all of your teeth. Everyone needs a way to define their dogs actions and characteristics. Whether you you do shutzhund, P.P., or frisbie on a Saturday afternoon. This is why I recommended the articles by Armin Winkler, which go into detail how people loosely use these terms. You were getting down on these people for using the term drives. Claiming that you want to know what the dog does. Everything you talked about can be described, by any of the "idiots" on this site, by one of these terms we use loosely. You could have simply asked about the dogs prey drive? avoidance? fight drive? Hunt drive? All I'm saying is, it saves a lot of time by using these terms. For example, when I ask my buddy about a girl. He says she's high maintanence and i understand. There's no need for him to go on and on with every detail. It's called a tool. It;'s something we use to make life easier. I'm not trying to start something, but I have a very low threshold towards ignorance and I don't want my defense to kick in. Im hungry and I really need to satisfy my food drive. I guess I'll use my hunt drive to look for something in the refrigerator. Betadog

Here you go Ravenwalker.

Thanks real dog. I did read this one. I was wondering what the drives in Max's time would be like. Like some of he hi drive sport dogs?....show dog?..or inbetween. What were they like before people tried breeding out drives/temperament for looks or not worrying about looks but going for high drive for sport.

Ravenwalker I think people are trying to increase the drives in the working lines. Not so much defense though. I see the breeders for sport slowly making the GSD into a malinois. The dog has slowly evolved over time. In the early Schutzhund trials I'm sure focus was not as big of a factor in obedience. One guy went on the field with his dog staring at him the whole time. All of a sudden every judge wanted to see this. To me, the GSD should be a balanced dog. I don't know what show breeders are doing to the drives. I really have not seen too many. There are enough problems with working dogs to even worry about the show lines. I know in Max's day structure was very different that the dogs of today. To finally answer your question, I think they would be different than the high drive sport, show or inbetween. I think it was a better balanced dog. Today, some of the dogs are too prey oriented. It could be the breeding or it could be the training. That is a question for another day!

traing/teaching a dog with extreme prey drive is ideal for a lot of people. as long as you have the ball you have their undivided attention. no daydreaming, stareing out the window stuff.but without the temperment to go with it, you have malinois,too wreckless for me.