Ban On E-Collars. - Page 3

Cutaway, the problem is that most people are "too stupid to know what they want or what they feel they need", and that the vast majority of people uses the e-collar for "punishment and nothing else".

That´s the sad truth, and because of that the use was forbidden in my country.

A "good" trainer will use ANY equipment accordingly, but the vast majority of dog owners are no good/experienced trainers, they are pet people, trying to get a working dog "in line".
The second group are the "professional" top trainers, trying to get the last point out of a dog, no matter how.

The sad result was a ban for all of us...

The worst punishments come through feet and hands. Kicking, hitting, punching, hanging.... no need to ban the e collar. If you ban the e collar, might as well ban any flat, fursaver, leash, and especially your hands and feet.

Just saying...

"There you are limiting the tool to no longer be used for aversion training..."

Why? Aversion therapy is being used in HUMANS since 1930 or so, not by inflicting pain, only discomfort!!

"It appears to me you want to remove self responsibility basically stating that people are too stupid to know what they want or what they feel they need."

In MY country, a group of medical students tossed a dog from the rooftop of a 3-storey building and filmed the whole incidence. In another instance, a group of teenagers burned alive a litter of puppies and filmed that. They all did that for their 15 seconds glory in social media. So, I think you are right with your assumption here.

"Furthermore it seems to me that you limit the use of ecollar to only that of punishment and nothing else"

That's how it's being used, Positive Punishment.

"Not to mention that you are trying to put ALL dogs on the same level of what stim is required in all circumstances???"

That can be taken care of, at least breed/size wise.

So, there's no problem pushing for "an improved version, which cannot be programmed in a way to inflict pain or cause harm to the animal" ?

 

All I am usually using is the vibration, and here is a fun fact, most dogs I've used the E Collar with, had a more severe reaction to the vibration (even though it's NOT painful whatsoever) than the electric stimulation on a level 15.

There is also a difference in working a dog in drive. A dog in drive most likely needs a level 20-30 (depending on how hard the dog is, and if you are working on a helper you may need 50+) while a dog "out of drive" can work within 1-15. 

That being said, if you teach a dog early on, how to turn off pressure, it's by far easier than working with dogs that haven't learned it at all. 

 

Turning off pressure can be anything from E Collar to working with a Slip Leash. 

 

Susie, can't bans be lifted? With the right argument?

Seems to me there was a grudge against the last WUSV winner, and instead of looking to beat the winner next year, the competition would rather change the rules.

Either traditional training without tools is as good as those who use tools, or it is not.

Well then. I guess my next question will be, to those who know how to properly use these tools, could you explain how to properly use them to those who don't know?

I won't ask for a video since this possible ban would put people in a bad position if it's found on a public forum.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/our-resources/kennel-club-campaigns/electric-shock-collars/

 

http://banshockcollars.ca/shockcollaruse.php

While I think everybody, both pro and con, should at least read the second of those two links, Swarnendu, I do not think that is what Reliya was asking. LOL.

In personal terms, I have never resorted succumbed to the use of an e-collar for any sort of training; not that I train for PPD or IPO-style competitions.  I have always found that I can get through to most dogs to show them what I need, without the use of electrical stimulation and usually without use of most of the other physical tools in the box.  Though I freely admit to having run out of patience when my last dog was young, and finally beating him up a bit, so yes I can equate fists etc with the 'stim'. Somehow I doubt that what I wanted to stop him doing would have been any better achieved by use of an e-collar, 'correctly' or 'incorrectly' applied. [And at least I was not doing it habitually ...]

Not everybody in training dogs in hundsports / police work / bitework etc feels a

need to use e-collars.  Those who DO seem to see its ('proper') use as something they cannot do without if they want to achieve placings or results they want, and describe the use as not only pretty essential, but with a reverance which almost bestows some magical quality to the use. No wonder they do not want to give it up easily. And think being able to use it means we can forget about others who mis-use it.  But that is, as I say, looking in from the outside, as I do not do the training I cannot possibly understand, can I ? And should doubtless therefore keep quiet on the subject / mind my own business.  As I have been told more than once.

I have a rough idea, having been shown, of the 'correct' way to use one, in theory; I am aware of the range of 'shock' one CAN get on human skin;  I know what happened to at least one dog that panicked when it first experienced (lowest setting) electricity applied to stop it going somewhere it should not. I have also spoken to those who swear by e-collars and e-fences for what one could consider 'everyday' training use.  Because they find electrical stimulation effective, they convince themselves it is ok to use on their canine friends.  As, however, most if not all of what they want to teach their dogs could equally be trained in a normally 'kind' and positive way, by taking their time and getting a better 'bond' going with the dog, or by improving their own timing & dog-reading

I am forced to conclude that the main reasons the fans of electric stimulation like it is the time factor involved, ie even if used 'correctly' it is still the quick route to a result.  On balance then, not for me, even if I can (just) recognise that it does not HAVE to be cruel, or cruelly used, and can give fast(ish) and consistent results,

perhaps with less overall effort on the part of the handler.

 

Thank you for the links, Swarnendu, I wasn´t aware this problem already became that "international".

Bee, there certainly is no "grudge". Several well known Germans were openly accused, too. Some of them were convicted by law already. SV tried to stay out of this as long as possible, but the club can´t act against German Law.

It´s not only Germany, thanks to Swarnendu I now know it´s Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia, and in some states in Australia., too.

People in Canada and England´s KC working on the ban by themselves, without Federal Law?

This is from the English KC´s website: "73% of the public disapprove of the use of electric shock collars on dogs (Kennel Club commissioned survey, 2014)" - nothing else to say...

Interesting commentary... Not saying that i agree or disagree but definitely interesting thoughts 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyPKsLqZDJE