hard dogs - Page 3

I know this will probably be taken wrong, but what I really like about a hard dog is they are very forgiving and by this I mean they thow off a handler error easier than a not so hard dog; conversely, they may be a little slower in getting the desire results.

Hey Spook You need these dogs especially when you are trying to figure out how to get the last few points to get to the top. Errors will be made and having resiliance{hardness} is necessary. I agree 100% with you. --Bob

i always defined hardness as "what dog is willing to endure to satisfy a certian drive" the example i use is if you take 20 hounds an let them chase a fox. Chasing the fox is a result of their drive. after about 2 or 3 miles a few will drop off, deciding that its not worth it. when the fox goes across a river, a few more may drop off. leaving only those w/ the greatest drive (or desire to catch the fox). now the we're left w/ only those that have greater drive and the only question is what are these dogs willing to endure to satisfy that drive. when the fox finds his favorite briar patch w/ an opening barely big enough for him, some dogs will say not thank you, while others will go in. when the fox make a circle and comes to the same briar patch, some dogs will say no thank you, while other will willingly go into the briar patch. And some of these dogs will go in the same briar patch again and again. its the dogs that will go into the briar patch time and time again i consider hard. they are will to endure any stress, pain etc.. to satisy thier drive. A dog may have a lot of drive but if it is not willing to endure adversity to satisfy that drive then it is not hard. we see this alot in show lines. a dog has a lot of desire for a ball, or bite, but the 1st time it hits the end of a leash w/ prong, its drive lowers because it is not willing to pay the price to satisfy its drive. whi therefore IMO a very high drive dog must bring a certian level of hardness to the table, these dogs are more likely to jump up at bite the handlers hand, while going after the ball, or bite the sleeve over and over again when learning the bark and hold. If it does not bring a level of hardness it will loose drive due to corrections. For example, a 10 mo od dog jumps up and bites your hand while you are holdinga tug. it would be understanable if yu give a hard correction on a choke chain and say NO. if the dog lacks a level of hardness it may shut down for a few sessions, while a dog that is hard will say, OK that was unacceptable, lets go... and not loose any drive. so to me hardness is "what is a dog willing to endure to satisfy its drive"

Close Scotty. You should also include his genetic pain threshold with your drive thresholds. Bob

Walter, I can't disagree too much. I believe it is genetics and it has to do with resilience of nerves. A lot of animals will do something in drive that may cause them pain, but that effort will be measured and/or slowed if they aren't hard enough. That being said, hardness alone will not make any dog and a dog that is too hard may be quite difficult to train. If it was just "what is a dog willing to endure to satisfy its drive" corections might be useless. I'm not sure; we may be saying the same thing.

I think w/ some dogs correction are useless. perhaps at some point a dogs hardness will get in the way of self preservation. when it doesnt care what happens, and these dogs really are usefull in every day life. IMO these dogs, provided they are sound in drive and health are only good for breeding (since they will most likely only produce 75% of themselvs). they can help w/the hardness of other lines. for example pitbull folks call it "gameness" how hard a dog is willing to fight. they want a dog that is more and more game. we know that no animal wants to die, and given the opportunity, some will fight and some will run. the problem comes in when the dog fights and fights, but when it realizes it cant win, its too late. the gameness that has been bred in has over taken the most basic drive of all "to survive" So, while i say hardness is what dog is willing to ednure to satisfy a drive. it is also on a scale of 1- 10. and either extreme is not wanted

I don't think I'd ever breed a dog that was 'so hard he couldn't be trained. I'm pretty confident in my definition of hardness be about resilience rather than willingness to fight.

O'kay. What about the mix of willingness to fight. Does it come from nerve in relation to quick/high loading or a dog that just loads up on testosterone because he loves the feeling? (Sort of like us Irish on a Sat. night. Better fighters than lovers.) Where does this fit in the picture? Come on guys spit it out, I am waiting. Should be interesting in relation to hardness.---Bob

spook I'm just using willingness t fight as an example. but perhaps a dogs resilance would be a better term. a dog that is unable to be trained would be no good to the breed, but there are a lot of dogs that where unable to be trained enough to score very high sch. scores. I think we can find a lot of examples of dogs that never performed at a high level but out produced the winners.

Bob, that is where I have a lot of trouble. Fight is, at least part, prey drive. No animal attacks the sleeve, pant leg, etc. without a large amount of prey. At least not initially. Here is where my problem lies. Why does the dog continue to hold on, and in the case of a good dog, clamp down harder, during the drive? Why do they brace their legs and try to work against the helper when he drives? In the old courage test, why did the better dog drive so hard for the bite while under attack? (Boy, do I miss the old courage test.) While I still question the term "fight drive," I feel that this resistance to the helper is the closest thing to fight drive there is and may fit the definition. It takes more than just prey drive to bring the fight to the helper. Is it obedience? Is the dog responding because that's what his partner wants? We call it courage, but isn't that a human characteristic. I was taught a long time ago that animal fight for one of two reasons. 1) Survival of the species; and 2) self survival. I doubt the animal is fighting because he feels his life is being threatened on a regular basis. That seems like a lot of stress and the tendency to flight would prevail. And after all is said and done we may be over analyzing this.