Some Stil Doubt Dogs Have Emotions?? - Page 3

Mindhunt, you mean my inability to see things YOUR way....

Can't we find some 'middle ground' here ?   Like HiredDog,  I have always leant more toward

the idea that dogs [and other animals] base their reactions in instinct, rather than human-like

'reactions' or 'feelings'.  And the whole "Fur Kids" thing makes me cringe.   BUT  I have seen

a dog and a bitch grow really fond of each other in a way that is beyond the way they would

normally relate, to the extent it could be interpreted as 'love' ;  and I have witnesssed dogs that

literally mourned the passing of a companion:  dog, human, or cat in some cases.

Where I draw the line is the assertion that dogs have 'morals' [as per Bubba's first post] !   You

won't convince me of that;  too many non-ethical / amoral humans around, for me to believe the

'lower orders' of mammals can have an ethical code of any sort.   I think it much more likely that

something seen as altruistic when done by a dog is simply because all the dogs actions are devoid

of the nuances and selfishness that accompany human activities, so they look better !

Blitzen, I have also had dogs that lived inside and out in a kennel. The inside dogs got on my nerves more because they are inside and I never looked at the outside dogs as any less or more. Yes, I have had dogs I liked more then others, but, my "heart" is for humans. I have never felt for a dog what I have for a human and I have always questioned the emotional status of anyone who has. Again, like I said earlier, when a human gives up on their fellow humans and starts looking at dogs as a better alternative, there is something wrong with that human and no one will convince me otherwise.

Yes, I have spent a huge part of my life with dogs, but, I have never owned a "pet", a dog that just sat there and did nothing. Yes, I have been hurt by other humans, like all of us have, but, I refuse to give up on my own species simply because they are capable of hurting me and I instead look for ways to become a better human, not give my life to dogs, declare all humans as evil and start spewing nonsense about how a dog "loves me unconditionally" when in actuality, the dog has no other choice. Tell me that a human who has options, a human who can think like one, loves you this way and in my eyes you are someone to be emulated.

No Hired Dog, not see things my way, rather keep up with research.  Your lack of acceptance of the research findings does not negate the research findings.  You may learn something 

Hudmutter, dogs brains light up similar to humans in brain scans, they have right/left brain activity like us.  Guess you could say humans are instinct driven at times like dogs and at other times dogs have emotions and reason like humans. 

I do believe a dog is a mirror of it's handler, I could usually tell what kind of person someone was by their dog's behavior and what was going on in the home. 

Mindhunt, when it comes to my dog, I am a benevolent dictator, I dont negotiate, but, I make deals, what do you see in your mirror?

So which is it dogs exhibit .. discernment or morality??  One or both or perhaps even more??  Morality is not a religious or human trait as defined in the dictionary and as animal studies have proven.   A dog that refuses to bite a child or harm a puppy regardless of the pain or suffering that lower ranking and weaker individual is causing the dog .. is this dog exhibiting morality or discernment??  A dog is attacked by another dog and in the course of the fight the attacked has a death choke hold on his attacker but when the attacker has been incapacitated releases him in a show of mercy and even comes back later to visit his attacker in a non-violent way in the attackers kennel to see if his attacker is recovered .. is this morality, mercy, discernment???  I have seen the morality and discernment of animals and much more with my own eyes from the now 75 or more dogs I have raised from birth and from puppies.  I have seen similar examples of morality and discernment from the hundreds of other animals I have reared and handled in my life time.  Humans find it convenient to place themselves in a higher category above animals but the truth is based on both science and observed facts we humans are just another animal among many inhabiting Earth.  Humans who kill and maim animals including their fellow humans for fun, profit or a weak minded belief system based on human superiority make one wonder if humans are either moral or discerning.  Are humans a higher order .. nope .. that is all religious mumbo jumbo like dominion.  An excuse to kill animals for food and fun and say they aren't like us when in fact they are .. do babies regardless of species feel pain??    The debate once raged among slave holders as to whether black slaves were as intelligent, had morals, and felt love or affection as did whites and whether they were a lower form of the species called human being.  Dogs aren't human and for that I am grateful.  

dis·cern·ment

: the ability to see and understand people, things, or stituations clearly and intelligently

1. 
   
   
   
   principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

   synonyms:

   ethics, rights and wrongs, ethicality More

   
   
   • 
     
     
     a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.
     plural noun: moralities
     "a bourgeois morality"
   • 
     
     
     the extent to which an action is right or wrong.
     "behind all the arguments lies the issue of the morality of the possession of nuclear weapons"

Bubba, I was watching some Nature show the other day about lions. When a new male comes into the pride, it kills every single cub not sired by him...morality or religious views? Yes, the female tries to stop him from killing her cub, but, she understands she is out matched and just walks away...morality or selfisness? Right after the male lion kills her cub, forcing her to go into estrus, he mates with her, many times, while she accepts it, from the same lion that 2 days a go killed her cub...what is that based on? Zebras do the same thing, what do you attribute it to?

Yes, we are just another animal walking the earth, but, I dont see any other animal sending people to the moon or curing diseases or crossing oceans in big ships or driving cars, or...well, you get the point. Chimps go to war with other chimps and eat the ones they kill...what is that? We may be animals, but, we are THE top animals here and now and all the BS pholosophizing will not change that.

Now this is about which we relate to better - dogs or humans?  So if we think that our dogs do experience emotions there has to be something lacking in our lives when it comes down to how we relate to our human peers?  Can't we ever have a discussion here that doesn't lead to  - I'm a better person than  you because I like people more than my dogs that do not define me.

Most experts now agree that dogs can feel emotions that are approximately limited  to those of 3  year old children. Read the article I linked above.

Dogs that don't live inside as my companions have no use for me anymore. That doesn't mean that those who keep kennel dogs are any less mentally "healthy" than those who don't.. It means our dogs serve our needs in different ways and we are at different places in our lives. Do I dress my GSD in costumes and paint her toenails? I do not. Do I allow her to sleep with me and is she at her usual spot right now sitting next to me? Yes. Does she work on my nerves because she's always with me 24/7? Sometimes, but I appreciate her being there many more times than not. Frankly there are many kids that work on my nerves a lot more than my dog, I guess that makes me a wingnut. 

When human soldiers round up and kill all the men and male children in a village or town and then rape all the women and girls are they humans or lions??  When the slave holder rapes his black female slaves and their daughters and other young females because they have power and control over them was that better than the lions or any other animal asserting control and power through violence.  The negative does not disprove the positive because if it did the human species is the most murderous and immoral on the planet without the actions of the moral and the discerning.  The question is do dogs have emotions, morals, and discernment and the science and the observed facts say yes .. the best do.  The worst animals are no worse than the worst humans.  See if you can wrap your mind around that Hired Dog.

To understand what dogs feel we must turn to research which was done to explore the emotions of humans. Not all people have the full range of all possible emotions. In fact at some points in your life you did not have the full complement of emotions that you feel and express today. Research shows that infants and very young children have a more limited range of emotions, but over time the child's emotions begin to differentiate and they come to be able to experience different and more complex emotional states.

 This data is important to our understanding of the emotional lives of dogs because researchers have come to believe that the mind of a dog is roughly equivalent to that of a human who is two to two-and-a-half years old. This conclusion holds for most mental abilities -- including emotions. Thus we can look to the human research to see what we might expect of our dogs. Like a young child, dogs will clearly have emotions, but many fewer kinds of emotions than we find in adults.

Read the rest of the article I linked above........