Does good bitework = good protection work? - Page 3

There is a lot of mixing of apples and oranges on this thread. The original post asked about ""protection" I may be wrong but I didn't take that to mean the protection phase of schutzhund. I read it to mean a dog for PP which is a totally different thing. A lot of the advice here is applicable to the sport dog and schutzhund protection. Very little, with the exception of olskoolgsd's advice, would be applicable to a real "protection dog". I think we need to define the meaning of what klekoni was asking.

Keep in mind guys pup is only 4months old. 2 decoys have worked him. I can see a huge difference in how the dog reacts to each. With age his protection will develope I'm sure. Everybody has a different idea on how to start a pup and different training methods. I just want to know if I am not pushing enough or if I'm pushing too much? I notice if we train every day for a few minutes, he knows whats going on when I put the harness on and he gets worked up before we get to the decoy. He yanks me out there to work. When I go to the other decoy once a week he is kinda "ho hum" yeah this can be fun but not as into it. Not sure if it's the different place or differnt training styles. Here he gets puppy sleeve and tug, stick hits and the whip. There he gets a racoon tail or burlap, last time they tied a shaker to the burlap and that woke him up more. Made it more interesting I think. He doesn't carry the burlap or racoon tail like he does the sleeve. Is it the toy or he place, environmental issue? I feel it's the satisfaction in the better toy that keeps the carry. Mayebe I am way off? There is NO fear biting going on, this dog has no fear I can only imagine the monster he will be in a year or 2 when he is totally confident in who and what he is. Right now he does take some pumping up at the other trainers place but has been fine and out like a lion for a while here. Just wanting opinions on this???

OGNG PP is NO different than good schutzhund training. If you go to a big trial you will see some dogs that were brought up properly in protection. These dogs are actively aggressive in both defence and prey. The big difference is that the top handlers have worked hard to get their dogs to control themselves. 4pack. If I were you I would only work with the trainer who is getting the most out of the pup. Repetition of the exercises will bring confidence and increase his loadability. Bear in mind these exercises should be thought of as exercises only like a boxer would do in the gym. They build technique, stamina and power but should not be placed in real proctection category. You really should do these yourself for the consistancy that you could bring to the above. My thoughts Bob

4 pack, I would continue to work him in the manner in which you are getting the best results. Whether it is an environmental issue,or a decoy issue doesn't matter at 4 months. I wouldn't put him in any situation where the results are less than you want. He's too young to be worked with added stressers. I don't think you are off on your assessment of the toy.They often pick what they like. Mine likes her burlap tug I made her the best so we work with that.

4pack, I'm not trying to be a smart ass. As you know I'm a big fan of working dogs and the need for training, but please think about how young this pup is. 4 months is too young. Protection is probably where the dog experiences the most conflict and very few pups are equipt for early protection training. Has your pup even lost it's baby teeth yet? You're not letting him be a puppy. Believe me, I understand being anxious when you have a very nice dog. Be patient. At this age you can only ruin the pup. Right now he should carry, chase, bring things back. Do some inducive obedience (no compulsion). Let him chew on your arms and everyone else who'll put up with it. Make him scent pads and throw food in them. Tell him 'such' and let him figure it out. It's okay not to believe me, but get ahold of someone who understands puppy training and talk to them about this. I know the pup you're training. It was one of 5 litters I had considered last year. It is a very nice breeding; don't ruin it. One of the worse things we ever did to Schutzhund was think there was some kind of bragging rights to how young our dog received his first title.

//""OGNG PP is NO different than good schutzhund training. ""// Beg to differ, realcold. There is a world of difference. But, of course, you are free to believe whatever you want.

Guess it is easier to just do PP with out the control OGNG. I will just continue to put all the pieces together and do it right.

Ok getting conflicting advice. Pup does better with the decoy who puts more pressure on him. I have seen video after working my pup like this of his brother and 2 sisters. All worked alike and doing the same in aptitude. I have talked to trainers, but they all have their own aggendas and wants for my pup. Spook101, my pup has yet to even loose a tooth at all, let alone have all of his adults in. As soon as I see blood, he wont be doing any bitework until the teeth are in. At that point I will focus on some OB with him. Thanks guys, I think I know I don't need to waste a day and gas to the other trainer. I can take him to new places and work on retrieving the ball instead. I was trying to get as much work into him because he seems to love it so much. Everytime he sees a sleeve or tug laying in the garage, he is on it in a heartbeat.

Realcold, I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. A true Personal Protection dog needs to be MORE clear headed and in control than a schutzhund sport dog. A PP dog is trained to be able to discriminate among MANY more situations than a sport dog who is trained to do the same thing over and over again in pursuit of the 100 points. Most schutzhund competitors, due to the lack of training, would not know how to react in a situation that a PP dog is trained for.

I agree 100% ONG. My doga dn I are by no means doing Sch work. Maybe someday with a different dog when I slow down.