Are you really Improving the Breed?????? - Page 3

cough, sputter, gasp...saying this at a whisper but "I think show dogs aren't an improvement to any breed". The dogs that are out there doing what they were bred for, are the winners.

dennis, i dont know how a breedr gets to the top. but how can a breeder talk to someone who is new to the GSD and spew all about titles, KKL, etc.. how they are trying to improve the breed, all their dogs are titled, etc.. when at the end of the day they have not made any improvements at all. they started w/ club level dogs and still have club level dogs. they are not offering anything you cant find from another breeder. have they honest produced a better working or show dog after 5 or 6 generation. if you campaign your self and your breeding program as "Improving the Breed" but cant show anything for it then i call BULL SH*T, youre not improving the breed, only maintaining the minimum standard (and there is nothing wrong w/ that). If youre gonna get on a soap box and talk about how long you've been breeding and all that you do to improve the breed then show something. if someone who puts so much stress on titles etc... cant produce titles, show rating etc... that are better than when they started they are merely the worst of the best. while the best of the worst would be a breeder w/ out hips, and experience w/ temperment etc... but cares about there dogs. im just tired of everyone being the saviour of the GSD, if you gonna improve the breed, then say this what my goal is, this how im doing it, and to date this is where we are. if not shut youre f'ing mouth. in a day where anyone can buy a titled dog, breeding has become a cottage industry, and claiming to improve the breed sounds a damn good sales pitch to me.

wsscott If I understand you correctly you are saying breeders that produce VA and V dogs are the primarybreeders that are improving the breed? If you are then you are a very mis-informned person. While some top show breeders are producing excellwent dogs where do you think the roached backs, over=angulation, low drives show dogs are coming from?

I'm well aware of Sch dogs being easily trained to do more. There are quite a few Sch dogs crossing over into other sports when people and dogs get bored. Sch doesn't put near enough pressure on dogs to weed out the soft. It would be much easier to take a dog bred for K-9 or of KNPV lines and make it a Sch dog than to do the reverse. Police K-9's and KNPV dogs are bred to be waaaay harder than a Sch dog needs to be. Too much can be trained around or made to look what it really isn't in Schutzhund. It's a sport but I don't think a passing Sch title should be considered the "best of the best." It was a good start 100 yrs ago, why did we change the rules and make them easier? More passing dogs for more breeders to make $$$$? I'm not a breeder, so I don't have to worry about making $ off my dogs. I fully understand and appreciate what Molly says about selling her pups as pets first. They should all be pets and then whatever else second.

desert- that is not my point. IMO to improve something means to make it better, if you keep producing the same thing over and over again, its the same, not improved ive noticed those that harp so much on a dog being titled before being bred are also some of those that say they are trying to improve the breed. therefore i assume that titles, show rating etc... are the measuring stick well if that is the case you, and you use tiles and show ratings etc... to show a dogs worth for breeding then 1. if your G litter is not better than you A litter what have you accomplished 2. if you are breeding dogs that barely pass, and for the most part weaker than other dogs, you are not improving anything. your producing what you already have. there is nothing wrong w/ breeding solid club level/pet dogs. but if you cant walk up to your measuring stick and stand a little taller, you are either doing something wrong or full of sh*t. so if people cant eithe say this is what im doing to reach this goal, or this is how much better my dogs are (using the same measuring stick they show puppy buyesrs) then perhaps they should rethink thier hollier than you attitude

""""4Pak wrote, Sch doesn't put near enough pressure on dogs to weed out the soft. It would be much easier to take a dog bred for K-9 or of KNPV lines and make it a Sch dog than to do the reverse. It's a sport but I don't think a passing Sch title should be considered the "best of the best."""" That's a load of crap. When I think of Schutzhund I think of National Level Trials. How many National trials have you trained for 4Pack??? And which ones if you say you have... Too many people read some crap online and make someone elses opinion thier own... I have trained dogs for K-9, PP, different competitions etc and non of them need the detailed training required to compete at a National Level. "This means Real Pressure from the handler & from the Trial Helper" K-9 are trained to trail and schutzhund dogs are trained to track. Trust me, it is much easier to switch fom tracking to trailing. Same in the bitework. No way is it easier "with the right dogs" to switch over. My black dog would switch over without any training onto the suit. I choose to try and keep him as sporty/social as possible.. Back to the topic of the thread. wsscott, I've been saying all along that the internet makes experts out first time GSD owners everyday!!! Best Regards, Dennis

The nice thing about Schutzhund as a sport is it is still relatively easy to see the actual dog. If you know what you're looking for.

I would rather think I am "protecting and maintaining the quality of the breed" that has always been there (at least in some breeding programs). One always strives to "improve" their own breeding program, at least that's the way I always heard it. I strongly doubt the breed itself needs my version of "improvement." Humbly yours, Shelley

Ok Shelley beat me to the punch. The only think I will add is that if your are breeding dogs with faults then you will get pups with faults. If as Shelley mentioned you breed dogs that meet the standard then you are protecting the breed. Some though are not satisfied and try to "better"the breed meaning they are changing the standard for themselves.

hunguy- your absolutly right in regards to dogs that show at the national level. until you've done it a few times you dont fully appreciate the type of dog tha can excel at ll 3 phases on the same day. dogs that win are able to handle all the stress that comes w/ the perhaps thousands of corrections given to obtain perfection. i thinkg this type of dog will do well in any venue, psa,k9,sch,pp,chasing geese. etc... Shelly that is my point. most breeders do what they can to "protecting and maintaining the quality of the breed". there are different thoeries on how to do that. But there may only be 2 maybe 3 breeders in the US that can say "YES, the breed is better off for me being involved... and this is why...." the rest are using "improve the breed" as either a sales tool, or a way to make them look more important or enlightned than others