'Dog Whisperer' disciple denied Stokenchurch dog adoption - Page 3

Good for you, read away nothing wrong with reading as long as it doesnt replace doing.  Again, dont have an issue with research or theory its when the theories dont line up with reality that I develop an issue. According to many behaviorists and studies that are in vogue what CM does is cruel and abusive and has poor to limited results.  Yet I do not see many other trainers from those camps handling similar cases as successfully and to the degree of success CM does. Like many of Milan's haters you focus on certain things like the alpha role and slapping legs (which he doesnt do). Since someone somewhere did a study showing alpha rolling and aggression have a correlation for which I can think of several reasons none of which have much to do with the act of rolling over a dog then he must be wrong.  Its not about the act, its about the timing and the mindset behind the act.  
 
If only CM had taken a degree in K9 behavior then maybe he would be the worlds most recognized dog behaviorist!  Oh wait he already is! 

Anyways to each their own but you wont catch me trying to tear down a trainer/behaviorist that has proven himself to be at the top of his game.  I see what he does with dogs and the types of cases he deals with, I see what Balbanov and Bellon do.  Ill Koehler and BF Skinner and respect them all because they have proven to be what most of us only dream of ever being.  I dont pay attention to detractors that can only present papers on why guys at the top of their game are wrong and abusive but dont have a single video of them working a single case.  I pay attention to one thing, RESULTS studies I take with a grain of salt. 

I guess we can all agree to disagree. Im sure the mutt is better off with the rescue then in a cruel home being beaten CM style! :).

 

(mispost)

@Haz,

Your comments are full of ignorance in regard to what is going on technique-wise with trainers and behaviorist.  Your first misconception is about the background of Bart Bellon.  He comlpeted an undergrad college degree, majoring in education with a focus on physical education.  FYI, all basic child-developlent curriculums for teachers have included behavior modification and operant conditioning techniques/theories for many, many decades.  THIS MEANS he most CERTAINLY learned about Operant Conditioning in an academic setting before he became a well know dog trainer, he may not have gone on to more formal advanced/graduate education, but he did receive the FOUNDATION of an "egg head" education.  Although we don't know specifically what Ivan's education background his from his native country its well known he attends continuing education seminars intended for working vets and board certified behaviorists.  It also quite easy to see that he has collaborated with an number of these folks for books, peer reviewed publications and conference presentations.  This guy is NO Cesar when it comes to keeping up on contemporary research in animal behavior

Your second point of ignorance is that as you say that "Egg-head Behaviorists" in general are all pro-positive-training only, you could not be any more incorrect. There are MANY types of behaviorists that use MANY different techniques within a VERY wide spectrum.  Operant Conditioning is animal behavior & ethology 101 and is used in zoos all over the country.  A quick example of something claimed to be all-positive training but in fact is not is Orca training at Seaworld.  When they put the Orca in a smaller holding tank for non-compliance, that can be leveraged as a "negative punishment" or "negative reinforcement".  So, to Jo public, whom know nothing about the science of Operant Conditioning, it looks like its all Positive Training because the Orca is not wearing an E-collar.

Third, pro sport trainers that specialize in working with high drive dogs are doing the EXACT same thing Cesar is doing, its just "channeled" into a highly visible behavior.  In fact Cesar is doing something EASIER than what they are doing, because he just trying to get a dog to "walk nice" with its owner or "not to attack the elderly dog also living in the house".  People like Bart Bellon don't do animal behavior 101 for Joe public dog owners, however contrary to your belief it does NOT mean such is beyond their abilities.  In fact they could do Cesars job "Day One".  Flip it around and see how far Cesar will go, trying to what pro sport trainers specializing in working with high drive dogs.  He might eventually "get it", but he won't be doing it "day one". If Bart Bellon had gotten Jada Pinket and WIll Smith as his "first client", he'd be on TV too.

As for your other comment about Egg-head academic behaviorist, not being able to do something in the "real world" because of too much formal education in an institution, I guess you've never seen a Vet school, teaching college zoo, or Animal Husbandry at an Agricultural University.  ITS ALL APPLIED, HANDS ON STUDY, WITH LIVING ANIMALS IN A TYPICAL WORKING ENVIRONMENT, WITH PRACTICUM COURSEWORK, NEEDED TO GRADUATE.  You don't become a doctor without completing a residency and you don't become a degreed "behaviorist" without working with live animals either.  Your comments only confirm what I though about you, you don't know SQUAT about how universities function, nor how even your neighborhood vet or "zoo keeper" got their degrees.  Your ignorance is STINKING up this thread to no end!

I worked with professors whom were doing primate research, as an RA.  I attended a University that had a small teaching zoo on campus, which also had agreements with outside primate rescues/sanctuaries and larger zoos.  Knowing both Operant and Classical Conditioning, shown by completing a particular course sequence, was a base requirement for being eligible to work with the primates in both the zoo animal handler program and/or as an RA for a professor conducting animal ethology research.  If you didn't take the courses, which all had applied hands-on course content, they were not going to let you get anywhere near the animals, period.  These animals were not "vivarium test animals", they were well cared for, captive animals in a zoo/sanctuary environment.  Almost all had injuries of some kind or were kept as exotic pets, preventing them from ever being returned to the wild.  Working with actual animals was part of many degree programs there, it was not an optional thing, or simply an after thought for student to participate in.

Lol putting words in my mouth again, keep throwing around the high falutin language it changes nothing.  Never denigrated vets if my dog needs shots or surgery Ill go to them. Or zoo keepers, if I want to know what will stimulate my pet Chimp best Ill email one.  I wont be going to them for behavior / training advice on working mine or anyone else's dogs. 

Bellon learned to train dogs in South Africa, his local dogsport club and the Army not at Teachers College...try again :).   Milan deals with easy cases he deals with hard cases.  Its the real hard ones with the unpredictable and dangerous genetic messes that has won my respect.  Someone that has been in dogs for a long time went to one of his seminars told me the guy can read dogs plain and simple.  This confirms what you see him do on his show for me.  I respect what he does and I think he easily is one of the greatest behaviorists of our time. 
Again Cesar and Bart are in different fields and IMO could not do one another's jobs as effectively as their own.

Believe what you like, its a free country.  My simple point was that I get tired of the usual suspects always trying to tear him down when they have never proved themselves to the degree he has.

Have fun :).

@Haz I've Met Bellon as have many others here, he has a 4 year degree in addition to his army training and dog club experience.  This formal education has a BIG influence over what how he developed his training system.  The fact that you think Vets just learn to dispense medicine and zoo keepers simply scoop poop up after chimps, only furthers your public ignorance.  There are lots of zoo keepers working with wild dogs and wolves, while not EXACTLY a dog, the techniques they used and built a foundation in post-secondary education is certainly relevant to dog training.  Next time you are at a zoo ask who takes care of the African Wild dog exhibit and strike up a conversation with them.  YOU WILL LEARN SOMETHING RELEVANT TO DOMESTIC DOGS, I guarantee it.

Your right if only I was as enlightened as you!  Fyi I mentioned surgery too so not just meds , and stimulate does not equate to poop scooping...tsk tsk its like you make it up as you go along.

Ill be sure to ask my vet next time I need help with DB retrieve or DA or maybe the elephant keeper?   

Many zoos clicker-train their animals to make it easier to examine them and give them medication without having to tranquilize them or stress them out by physically restraining them. Watch 'Zoo Diaries' on Nat Geo Wild, if you can get that channel.

Watch it all the time and have actually been to that zoo numerous times :)..  My point cloaked in sarcasm was zoo keepers have their place as do vets..and its not as dog behaviorists or trainers.

as i said before, everybody can think certain techniques are to hard,outdated etc,etc,etc but when you say these things than please provide the proof that your way gets better results than those
never seen a top competitiondog/servicedog who was trainned stricktly positive so please inlighten me

I have to wonder how many of these "rescues" are dog hoarders with a license?

They complain of have too many dogs, yet make it almost impossible for adoptions. Instead, they keep their dogs in crates and kennels, warehouses, etc.

I also wonder how many of these rescues are gaining financially and see no benefit to adopting dog and puppies out.

Yes, not all of them, but the ones with ridiculous requirements.....the ones that make adopting a dog impossible.

Personally, I have 2 fosters at this point. Just placed one for the cost of her spay. I check references, and call their vet, ask how many other dogs/cats are in the home and if they have kids, they must come so I can watch the interaction of parents/kids/dog.

IMO the key is to get the dogs into a home environment and loved, and out of "holding". Once a dog leaves here, the new owner is encouraged to give weekly updates and send photos. If they have any problems, I'm available for home visits. New owners are also encouraged to come to weekly training at my home, or I give a list of trainers/training facilities that I know and like.

Once again, are they licensed hoarders?