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by EliDog on 01 May 2013 - 19:05
Randy no need to walk we can car pool....lol.
Keith
Keith
by Elkoorr on 01 May 2013 - 19:05
Yes, Janro, you can pm me details. There are several clubs up your road depending witch directions you are going. I am looking to train a few times with some for different exposure to helpers and field. So would like to know who you refer to.
by momosgarage on 01 May 2013 - 19:05
As for those saying he should take legal action, well there's a couple of things. Anonymous speech is protected to a certain degree, depends on the state and precedent in previous cases. Second, Pedigree Database would need to be named in any case brought forth by him, so should he decide to do so, be ready to possibly kiss this web forum goodbye. Next they would need to start subpoenaing people, so the ones who experienced the alleged neglect would be involved in some way. Based on having looked at the older threads that's going to be a lot of people and some with documented experience with the said individual. Its a real money loser, I can't imagine any law firm taking him up on contingency in today's market.
by EliDog on 01 May 2013 - 20:05
Maybe we can sell bracelets to raise money for legal fees?....lmao
Keith
Keith
by hexe on 01 May 2013 - 20:05
Bwahahaha! Was wondering which one of you apologists was going to play the race card first--so the prize goes to Sporthund, and with their very first post here, no less! <golf claps>
The reference to Michael Vick was in response to bubbabooboo's query of 'what would Jesus do?', which of course implies that all sins should be forgiven. If that's the position one chooses to live by, have at it. Me, I forgive those who own their sin, acknowledge the harm they've done and make amends for it, and then go on to live their life with rectifying those wrongs and working to see that others don't repeat those sins. Just because some asks for forgiveness doesn't mean they have any sincere regret for their action--generally, the only thing they are truly sorry for is that they got caught.
Did Jeffers electrocute dogs and gamble on them? No, I have no information on any such activities. Did I SAY Jeffers and Vick were one and the same as far as their offenses? Nope. Nothing of the kind. The SOLE similarity between the two, in my view, is that each had cavalier disregard for the welfare of sentient beings that were beholden to them for their care and sustenance. We can add Janice Bartmess to their club, if that makes you feel better about the racial composition of the grouping.
Old news? THAT'S the excuse this should be overlooked now? It was 'old news' that Janice Bartmess was convicted of animal neglect and abuse, so people willingly gave or sold her dogs and knelt at her feet as the font of all information DDR-line GSDs. And she did the same damn thing she'd done with the first group of dogs she'd had--she neglected them and had them living in filth, neglecting her own mother's welfare in addition for good measure.
So I'm not entitled to speak up on this issue because I don't belong to any of the organizations, hmm? Nice try. I'm in the easiest of positions: I'm one of the few people who can speak out eith nothing to gain or lose in this. I don't have to try to placate bullies who control a local club or who have power in any of the organizations who could try and block me from training my dog. I don't care if a breeder who would rather overlook the treatment those dogs received in Jeffers' care doesn't want to sell me a dog, because I wouldn't buy a dog from anyone who would consider neglecting dogs 'old news' or acceptable since it wasn't prosecuted in the courts. I don't breed dogs, so I'll not lose any sales or stud service fees because I speak up when I see something wrong taking place. Despite all of that, I DO support the sport in the ways non-participants can provide support: I donate to trophy funds when I can, or to travel expense funds for the members of the teams representing the US in the SV and international events; I defend and advocate for the sport when legislation is proposed that would threaten the future of the activity, and promote the activity to dog owners who express an interest in working with their dogs in something rewarding and challenging and beneficial for both handler and dog. I didn't say that I NEVER belonged to a club or an organization--just that I have not belonged to any such entity since I moved to an area where I no longer had access to the sport.
Above all, though, I have a right--and a responsibility--to speak up when I see something wrong taking place, whether I belong to the group that is perpetrating that wrong or not. The sentiment expressed in the statement, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.", generally attributed to Edmund Burke, is far too often set aside in favor of personal gain or out of fear of personal loss. It's all too easy to turn a blind eye to things when those things are inconvenient to one's wants or needs.
The reference to Michael Vick was in response to bubbabooboo's query of 'what would Jesus do?', which of course implies that all sins should be forgiven. If that's the position one chooses to live by, have at it. Me, I forgive those who own their sin, acknowledge the harm they've done and make amends for it, and then go on to live their life with rectifying those wrongs and working to see that others don't repeat those sins. Just because some asks for forgiveness doesn't mean they have any sincere regret for their action--generally, the only thing they are truly sorry for is that they got caught.
Did Jeffers electrocute dogs and gamble on them? No, I have no information on any such activities. Did I SAY Jeffers and Vick were one and the same as far as their offenses? Nope. Nothing of the kind. The SOLE similarity between the two, in my view, is that each had cavalier disregard for the welfare of sentient beings that were beholden to them for their care and sustenance. We can add Janice Bartmess to their club, if that makes you feel better about the racial composition of the grouping.
Old news? THAT'S the excuse this should be overlooked now? It was 'old news' that Janice Bartmess was convicted of animal neglect and abuse, so people willingly gave or sold her dogs and knelt at her feet as the font of all information DDR-line GSDs. And she did the same damn thing she'd done with the first group of dogs she'd had--she neglected them and had them living in filth, neglecting her own mother's welfare in addition for good measure.
So I'm not entitled to speak up on this issue because I don't belong to any of the organizations, hmm? Nice try. I'm in the easiest of positions: I'm one of the few people who can speak out eith nothing to gain or lose in this. I don't have to try to placate bullies who control a local club or who have power in any of the organizations who could try and block me from training my dog. I don't care if a breeder who would rather overlook the treatment those dogs received in Jeffers' care doesn't want to sell me a dog, because I wouldn't buy a dog from anyone who would consider neglecting dogs 'old news' or acceptable since it wasn't prosecuted in the courts. I don't breed dogs, so I'll not lose any sales or stud service fees because I speak up when I see something wrong taking place. Despite all of that, I DO support the sport in the ways non-participants can provide support: I donate to trophy funds when I can, or to travel expense funds for the members of the teams representing the US in the SV and international events; I defend and advocate for the sport when legislation is proposed that would threaten the future of the activity, and promote the activity to dog owners who express an interest in working with their dogs in something rewarding and challenging and beneficial for both handler and dog. I didn't say that I NEVER belonged to a club or an organization--just that I have not belonged to any such entity since I moved to an area where I no longer had access to the sport.
Above all, though, I have a right--and a responsibility--to speak up when I see something wrong taking place, whether I belong to the group that is perpetrating that wrong or not. The sentiment expressed in the statement, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.", generally attributed to Edmund Burke, is far too often set aside in favor of personal gain or out of fear of personal loss. It's all too easy to turn a blind eye to things when those things are inconvenient to one's wants or needs.
by hexe on 01 May 2013 - 20:05
momosgarage, I don't take a stand on something of this nature unless I am very, very sure of the facts of the matter.
by EliDog on 01 May 2013 - 20:05
You are so full of it Hexe...stock tip folks...buy P&G they make Charmin ..I thought Rottie people were vindictive and backstabbing...lol..I want to know if the facts are/were supposedly so strong why wasn't he ever charged criminally...please don't give me the political ties..have you ever driven through Roxboro, NC? yeah buddy power capital of NC I'm here to tell you! I haven't seen Ray in a while..I should run down and see if he'll abuse my dog for me...get real and a life while you're at it...
Keith
Keith
by Sheesh on 01 May 2013 - 20:05
I will make one post on this topic-
I had the pleasure of meeting Ray Jeffers a year or two ago. He was a very pleasant and friendly young man at initial meeting. I watched his helper work, as he was becoming certified by our trainer. Ray has a natural instinct and rapport with dogs that is beautiful to watch.
Earlier this year, I made several trips to NC to Ray's training club to train. Not only was he extremely welcoming, along with his group, and Cynthia, but again, his talent with reading each individual dog was phenomenal. My own dog is very difficult to work, and he was extremely perceptive and sensitive in addressing his needs.
I also saw several dogs over several weeks that were in Ray's care, that were training and shown, that were all in good physical condition, happy healthy, and training.
I did not know this person at the time of the purported accusations, however he would have been about 24 yrs old... I am not making excuses for bad behavior or bad choices if they were indeed made, but how long should a person be crucified for them??? I suppose everyone here led a flawless existence before they "grew up"?
The man that I know is an awesome trainer and awesome dog handler.
THANK GAWD my bad choices as a young adult aren't plastered all over the fricking internet.
Theresa Wolfe
Tri City Schutzhund Verein
I had the pleasure of meeting Ray Jeffers a year or two ago. He was a very pleasant and friendly young man at initial meeting. I watched his helper work, as he was becoming certified by our trainer. Ray has a natural instinct and rapport with dogs that is beautiful to watch.
Earlier this year, I made several trips to NC to Ray's training club to train. Not only was he extremely welcoming, along with his group, and Cynthia, but again, his talent with reading each individual dog was phenomenal. My own dog is very difficult to work, and he was extremely perceptive and sensitive in addressing his needs.
I also saw several dogs over several weeks that were in Ray's care, that were training and shown, that were all in good physical condition, happy healthy, and training.
I did not know this person at the time of the purported accusations, however he would have been about 24 yrs old... I am not making excuses for bad behavior or bad choices if they were indeed made, but how long should a person be crucified for them??? I suppose everyone here led a flawless existence before they "grew up"?
The man that I know is an awesome trainer and awesome dog handler.
THANK GAWD my bad choices as a young adult aren't plastered all over the fricking internet.
Theresa Wolfe
Tri City Schutzhund Verein
by hexe on 01 May 2013 - 20:05
Well, Elidog, I can tell you that in the case of the two dogs that were starved, each of the other parties did not live close enough to be able to pursue a case, and opted to get their dogs out of his hands and back home ASAP. Had either of them been in a position to hang around for the length of time it takes to get a case such as this through the system, this would have resulted in criminal charges being brought and ultimately a conviction. There is solid documentation of the condition of the dogs when they were received by Jeffers as well as their conditions immediately after they were removed from his hands. The dog that was 'lost' or could never be accounted for was taken to the courts, and the dog's owner was awarded a judgement against Jeffers as a result--are you suggesting that this would have occurred if there was no merit to the case?
I'm not surprised there are many who would make apologies for this individual; and I have said more than once that he well may have become a more responsible individual as he matured. That does not negate that he has shown himself capable of neglecting the care of a being that was dependant entirely on him, and that's not immaturity--that's a character flaw, and a serious one at that.
I'm not surprised there are many who would make apologies for this individual; and I have said more than once that he well may have become a more responsible individual as he matured. That does not negate that he has shown himself capable of neglecting the care of a being that was dependant entirely on him, and that's not immaturity--that's a character flaw, and a serious one at that.
by EliDog on 01 May 2013 - 21:05
Would have ..could have...should have doesn't mean squat...you're comparing apples to oranges...having a civil judgment issued isn't the same as proving criminal charges...preponderance of evidence for civil cases versus burden of proof for criminal...the dog was lost/escaped/stolen whichever...he could not produce the dog so the claimant was issued a judgment...tragic whatever happened to the dog that could not be produced but other than internet ramblings that all you or anyone else has...hell I could find some malnourished dog tomorrow..take some photos and plaster them to the internet and find a dozen witnesses to swear you did it...doesn't make it so does it?
Keith
Keith
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